Could Jim Morrison have made it without a band as good as the Doors?

After Jim died, the band released what was perhaps their two best studio albums ever (other voices and full circle).















Just kidding.

 

I would hope so because I was going to recommend a good Psychologist.

 

Asked and answered surely? If they had been led by a less destructive personality they might have had a longer career as a band. I know that many will say 'yeah, low-grade bar band at best' but, since I don't care for Morrison's work, you'll excuse me if I don't follow the 'burn bright, burn short' interpretation of their career as a band.

 

I disagree without Morrison there would be no Doors. And we have six of the finest albums ever made with Jim. There is no other frontman/singer that could lead the Doors.

 

Given that the answer is so obviously "yes, why not?" it simply reminds me that the Doors still rank among the most polarizing bands in history.

Same question could be raised for dozens of other major bands, yet I have the feeling that Jimbo (or the other 3) remains the prime target.

True, but I can't help detecting a slightly negative undertone in the "very lucky" phrase: it's a "luck" thing for the Doors and "history / fate / written in the stars" thing for any other bands.
The Lizard King can do anything but generate consensus.

 

Jim Morrison "went south" and apparently never came back.

He seemed to embrace the darkness... or at the very least been overwhelmed by it.

Rather than engaging in a struggle with it.

Although he could very well have fought against it, how would I know?

I can't judge this knowing what I know about myself.

It's a struggle all of us know about.

He was a poet who could have gone a different path and it might have worked out better.

Even without the great keyboards and Moog of Ray Manzarek.

 

Jim was pretty much burned out physically and with the rock music business when he went to Paris.
- While there was a good chance that he was moving away from his music career, according to his friends, his publicist and their manager, he was hardly “burned out”…..Rather, say those who spent the most time with him, he was feeling lighter about most things as he was finally free of The Doors as an obligation and could spend some focused time looking at other artistic avenues he was interested in pursuing, whether it was his writings or possible film projects.

rather than getting away from the people and things that were destroying him, he surrounded himself with a new set of drug dealers, hangers on and drinking buddies.
- Seems to be an assumption that Jim’s small circle of good friends in the States were not friends with lives and careers of their own, but nothing more than “hangers on and drinking buddies”….. as portrayed by “biographers” who never spoke with them or Jim. Rather there’s this bizarre sense that Jim didn’t choose his friends like everyone else in the world does; sharing common interests who liked to have a good time together; traveling, hanging out, working, conversing, etc. NOT “drug dealers”….

- The so-called “friends” in Paris are of dubious origin to say the least. Meanwhile Jim did write to his friends, like Frank and Kathy Lisciandro, telling them to come stay with himself and Pam when they arrived in Paris in July. They had a spare room. The letter Jim wrote to his business manager, Bob Greene, is equally as important as to Jim’s state of mind in Paris.

- And the less said about the so-called “Jomo and the Smoothies/Last recording of Jim Morrison” the better. Biographers like Stephen Davies use this oft-told story to try and illustrate how out of control Jim was in the final days of his time in Paris. Read his book to say how explicit his description of what Jim was thinking, how he was running fast and loose, etc. But here’s the deal, that so-called “last recording of Jim Morrison in Paris” NEVER HAPPENED! Frank Lisciandro was the first to reveal that the other person on the recording was Jim’s friend and iconic beat poet Michael McClure. Top Doors researcher Len Sousa (see TheDoorsGuide.com) contacted McClure who admitted that it was he and Jim on the tape and that it took place in Los Angeles in 1969 or possibly as early as 1968.

So, is this book going to tell me that Jim didn't drink and do drugs in Paris and that he didn't die of heart failure or a drug overdose a few months after he got there? Does it direct me to where I can find all the brilliant work he did there?
- Some interesting items would include that Jim was taking a drug called Marax while in Paris for some serious enough respiratory problems that he had to see a physician shortly after he arrived. Most likely due to an injury he had after a fall from a window at the Chateau Marmont in the days before he left for Paris. This internal injury very well could have combined with a return of his asthma (not to mention that Jim wasn't exactly on a health-kick during his life). But what’s interesting is that “Marax” was eventually banned by the FDA in the States because of respiratory side effects and deaths linked to the main ingredient in Marax, Ephedra.

- As for the work that Jim did while in Paris, you can read how Michael McClure discusses the hundreds of poetry files in Jim’s portmanteau that Pamela brought back from Paris and presented to McClure in hopes that he would put together a book of Jim’s poetry. McClure goes into great detail about how organized and meticulously the various drafts of his poetry were put together. Interestingly enough, after receiving a call from Jim in Paris, the Doors’ secretary and friend Kathy Lisciandro sent the portmanteau and Jim’s poetry over to Paris. There was no rhyme or reason to it when it was sent. Yet a few months later, it was meticulously organized, which, not surprisingly, is one of the things that Jim said he wanted to go to Paris for; and that was too organize his writing, which he apparently did to a very significant degree.

Anyway, just a few things to consider…..Cheers

 

Yes. He made them. The Doors are huge because of Jim. They were average musicians.

 

Mediocre.

 

I knew that Jim had asthma and had a respiratory infection that he saw physician for while in Paris. I did not know that the medication prescribed to him was later banned by the FDA in the U.S. I have the book but haven't gotten to that section yet. Interesting.

 

oh there's no doubt he was a great talent but there are a lot of people out there with gifts, and a lot of times they don't find their proper vehicle.

 

So Jim Morrison, the guy who was known for wild excess in everything he did, spent his last months sorting and filing his poetry (while sipping herbal tea? ) and died from a side effect of asthma medication? Sorry, I'm not buying that. Pam Courson said they were drinking and doing heroin the night he died and she knew better than anyone what happened that night.

Here's a little information about ephedra from about.com:

"Its popularity continued to grow, and it was found in many nutritional supplements marketed for weight loss and performance enhancement until supplements containing ephedra were banned by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) in 2006.
The primary active ingredients in ephedra are believed to be the alkaloids ephedrine and pseudoephedrine."

Pseudoephedrine is still available at any drug store without a prescription.

Sure there was another side of Jim Morrison, the good side. The kind, friendly, polite Jim Morrison. Let's hear all about that side of him, but there seems to be a trend towards sanitizing the biographies of rock stars and I don't think that's a good idea. We can handle the truth.

 

As a poet or a filmmaker, perhaps. I'm not sure if he would even have had a career in music without what eventually became the Doors.

 

Not sanitizing anything, and the book doesn't downplay Jim's drinking for instance. Not putting a halo on the guy, but why people are so accepting of the outrageous episodes that have been spewed over the years; never questioning them no matter how obscure the source, or when the source is completely discredited as in the previous statement about the "last Paris recording."

Funny, how it certainly doesn't work the other way, does it? Instead you get responses like "the guy who was known for wild excess in everything he did, spent his last months sorting and filing his poetry (while sipping herbal tea? )" How can that remotely be difficult to "buy"? Jim was not out drinking and drugging 24/7; that's just stupid. See a pattern here? The guy was not a drug addict who was high all the time; he was an alcoholic but was a binger more than a constant drunk.

And he wasn't the leather-clad, depressed and morose guy, according to his closest friends. All of them point to his sense of humor; always looking, observing, with a humorous slant. People accept the stage performer or the wild guy, which is the other extreme and much more unrealistic portrait that has convinced many people about the myth of Jim Morrison; not an accurate portrait of the man himself. Jim was known for wild excess because of the sensationalistic stories and media hype that have played them up for 40+ years. Yes, Jim did spend a lot of time working on his poetry and the craft of that poetry.

I don't know about any trend towards sanitizing the biographies of rock stars, but you seem to be pretty darn accepting of sensationalistic crap written by the likes of Stephen Davies or Danny Sugerman, which is how I was when I first got introduced to the Morrison legend in 1980/81. Fortunately I was able to meet and interview Jim's friends and associates and band members over the years, so was able to get beyond the sensationalistic myth and get a glimpse at Jim Morrison the Man.

Not pushing this book on you since you seem only to want to know the wild side of Jim (and that's not at all hidden in this book, but the episodes are in a much more realistic context that's believable for people in their early 20s). If I was only known for stupid dumb drunk **** I did 30 years ago...and there were a LOT of them.....I wouldn't have any friends, but in reality stupid **** done on occasion is just that....stupid **** that friends laugh about later.

Anyway, here's a FREE interview that I did do with Frank Lisciandro a few years ago before we worked on this book together. This interview has been universally hailed by hardcore Doors fans (as has the new book).

Here's the link to that lengthy interview with Frank, if you're interested

Cheers

 

I had bought your book before this thread began and I look forward to reading it. The Jim Morrison of wild excess is not a product of sensationalist writers but of eye witnesses, including the other Doors. I saw the bad Jim myself at a Doors concert I attended. He was totally wasted and couldn't keep it together long enough to complete a single song in spite of the fact that 10,000 people had paid good money to hear his music. I don't know why you find it so hard to accept the word of the people closest to him, his true love Pam Courson and his fellow Doors.

Your book will sell. You don't have to call all the people who witnessed the out of control Jim liars and push some revisionist history that he didn't die from his drug and alcohol drenched lifestyle. Most of the people who wrote about Morrison agree that he could be a charming and generous gentleman, but they also agree that he could be a monster. There is no doubt that he did massive amounts of drugs and alcohol right up to the end of his life, and if your book tries to say that he didn't, then you are the liar.

So good luck with your book. The world needs to know more about the good side of Jim Morrison, but please don't try to tell us that the bad side didn't exist. That would be pure sensationalist bs in a desperate attempt to sell books.

 

Let's see - all the original Doors albums are certified platinum, two of three live albums are platinum, several comps are platinum and one is rated diamond. Pretty good numbers for an amateur singer and an incompetent backup band. How much bigger could Morrison have possibly gotten?

 

Morrison was, in my opinion, by far the most interesting thing about the Doors, and I found the question of whether he could have "made it" without the other members of the Doors a bit comical, so that was my somewhat silly response. I don't really think the Doors were incompetent, but this was hardly a case of super talented musicians pushing a less than inspired singer to fame and fortune. My sense is Morrison was headed for fame almost regardless of who he worked with. Just my opinion, etc.

 

Obviously Jim possessed that star quality that the others probably did not, so it was wise of them to keep him always on vocals while he was in the band.

Nevertheless, the other three were a special mix of talent themselves and could have had a few hits without Jim, most notably "Light My Fire" had Robby recorded the vocals and Jim just played tambourine or backup vocals or something. I'm not saying it would have as good, but it might have been a hit still.

All the same, Jim was a star and did write a lot of brilliant lyrics himself, so I'm sure he could have had success on his own as well.

 

I think that in a sense they were very evenly matched. They were amateur to semi-pro musicians and he was a guy who liked to read and write voraciously, drink a lot and get kicked out of film school. I think that in an alternate reality he wouldn't have been famous at all. He wasn't looking to be a rock star, he just took it on as a project and it worked for all of them. If he'd have hooked up with any normal L.A. rock band, they would have fired him within a week. And if they hadn't have hooked up with Jim, they'd have been playing covers in nightclubs for maybe 6 years or so before moving on to other careers.

 

Whoa.....
I'm not calling people who talk about Jim's "wild side" ALL liars. Not at all. What I'm saying is that anyone who thinks that a person is wasted 24/7 during their life or that he was wasted at every concert he gave is really not being realistic.
Of course the sensationalistic stuff sells, but when you have stories that get exaggerated to be more sensationalistic, then you're not getting the truth.
I'm not saying he didn't die from a heroin overdose, because I don't know. But NOBODY does know the truth. Sorry, but I don't buy into the conspiracy theorist stories of him dying in a stall, then two people drag him out a back alley, take him to his apartment, stick him in the bathtub, blah blah blah.....You may buy all that, I don't. Yet, at the same time, Jim was having respiratory problems. Alain Ronay, even though I don't believe everything he says, talks of Jim collapsing on the stairs in Paris, unable to catch his breath shortly before his death.
As for Pamela, she never once spoke on the record or ever gave an interview about her life with Jim, so any stuff from her is third-hand anyway. As for The Doors, they were not close with Jim in the later years, and they admit this. Jim's friends were outside the band.
Final words, since we've basically crapped this thread , is that I NEVER said that the "bad side" as you call it didn't exist. But when you say "There is no doubt that he did massive amounts of drugs and alcohol right up to the end of his life," then I don't know where to go from there. You have your mind made up, no matter what people who did party with him, traveled with him, hung out with him have to say..... I don't know maybe you're just new to the forum, so you feel like making a big noise with how adamant you are about everything to do with Morrison. As with topics that I'm interested in, I'll continue to read various points of view and make up my own mind. Cheers!

 

First of all, I do not claim to be an expert on Jim Morrison. In fact I guarantee you that I am not.

I do think that we might come to an agreement if you stop trying to put words in my mouth such as that I made any reference to some nonsense about Jim dying in a stall ,etc., etc. , or that I said that Jim was wasted 24/7 during his life, or was wasted at all his concerts. I did not say any of those things and do not believe that any of that is true.

I did say, "There is no doubt that he did massive amounts of drugs and alcohol right up to the end of his life." and I think there is plenty of evidence to back that up unless a whole lot of people are lying.

In reply you said: "But when you say "There is no doubt that he did massive amounts of drugs and alcohol right up to the end of his life," then I don't know where to go from there."

Well, you could provide evidence that he didn't do massive amounts of drugs and alcohol, but I think his drinking and drugging is pretty well documented. Regarding the "right up to the end of his life" part, although Pam Courson didn't do interviews, she did tell a number of people that she and Jim were drinking and doing heroin the night Jim died (Jim doing more drinking than Pam). All the people who claim she told them that could be lying, but I haven't seen any evidence of that. I also haven't come across anyone in my readings who claims Pam told them that Jim was clean and sober the night he died. Pam died about a year later of a heroin overdose. I am open to changing my mind about that too if there is evidence that that is not true

Regarding his being physically burned out check this out:

http://jimmorrisonsparis.com/last-photos-of-jim-morrison/

Remember, that is a 27 year old man, not a 54 year old man.

Finally, I think there is a 98% chance that Jim died of hard living or a drug overdose, a 1% chance that he died of ephedra and a 1% chance that he died of something else, but if I am presented with credible evidence to the contrary I am open to changing my opinion. And that is my last word on the subject. Again, good luck with your book.

 

I agree with the first paragraph...those 4 guys needed each other. In the second paragraph, I doubt Jim's revenue would've dried up entirely, unless he completely relied on publishing from poetry. Even then, he might've gotten by. But, when you factor in royalties from record sales and publishing...those 4 guys were well off.

 

NO ! the doors were a connection just like the beatles each member played their part ! you might think Jim was above them but in reality he was not ! each member was just as creative in one way or another ! devalue the rest of them at your own peril!