Which Chicago album do you stop at?

There were a few bad songs in there but unlike Hot Streets and in particular 13 it had balls thanks to Chris Pinnick, he was closer to Terry Kath compared to the awful Donnie Dacus.

 

13, but I should have stopped at XI.

 

I have the first 3 and Live In Japan, which I have been told sounds better than Carnegie Hall.

 

Blows me away every time I play it

 

Perhaps you're focusing on the guitarists. I'm focusing on the overall album: the mixes, and the songs themselves. "Chicago 13" sounds like a Grammy winner when compared to the "thumbprint" album.

 

Agree. Plus it kills me to hear a great trombone solo from Pankow go to waste on Thunder & Lightning because the rest of the song (or at least the vocals) were unlistenable. This was the case for me anyway on all the post-Guercio/Kath albums, Hotstreets, 13 and XIV — a few great instrumental moments, surrounded by dire results.

 

Chicago X (10) for me released in 1976. That is the last album that represents the "Chicago" sound to me. Their next album Chicago XI (11) just doesn't do it for me. After that their main producer James Guecio left. (Yes a lot of me's )

 

I don't play any Chicago after XI, just saying that after Hotstreets and 13 the 3rd post Kath record surprised me a bit for the better, a few hidden gems and a stunning opener Manipulation. Actually I think Thunder and Lightning is a highlight!!! An awful lot of garbage too though.

 

BN

At least they could actually play live haha. Too much of the industry today is all done in the computer and yes even when playing live. There's nothing like hearing a raw performance with no bells and whistles.

 

Even though we all like the band, funny how we all like something different about the stuff we like and that which we don't like. On those three albums there are only two songs that I can say that I like in totality, and even they have weaknesses: Hot Streets (title track), although I didn't care for the use of the synth., and on XIV, I'd Rather Be Rich, but I didn't care for the sound of the entire album, way too thin and harsh. I heard a practice session of I'd Rather Be Rich from Chicago V, and I liked the sonics a whole lot better, but some of the vocals and phrasing not as well as on XIV.

I've listened to Manipulation many times, but just don't hear what others like about it. Perhaps it had a lot to do with the overall sonics, but it just didn't sound like Chicago music too me. It was overly rushed and thrown together — yeah there was a strong guitar presence, but aesthetically unpleaseing, ungrooving for me.

It seems ironic to me that a band who was considered groundbreaking for it's style of music and sound in the 60's and early 70's, appeared to be following the trends in the late 70's, dying to get on the radio, and would play any junk to accomplish that (yet I don't believe they even were successful at getting this stuff on the radio).

 

There was some really good stuff on XI. "Mississippi Delta Blues", "Take Me Back To Chicago", and "Takin' It On Uptown". But, the album was upstaged by the popularity of "Baby, What I Big Surprise". People point to songs like "Just You & Me" or "If You Leave Me Now" as their fall into balladry, but I blame "Baby, What A Big Surprise", and Peter Cetera's general dislike of jazz music and horns.

 

"If You Leave Me Now" was a turning point, "Baby What A Big Surprise" was just more of the same. BTW I like both songs, but a later series of events (Kath's death, Lamm's withdrawal and the switch in producers eventually leading to David Foster) brought about the leaden power ballads of the 80's.

 

"Baby What A Big Surprise" is a terrific Beatles pastiche

 

IMO it doesn't matter what labels you place on the music, only how each fan values the music. Clearly Chicago has a diverse fan base, and plenty of fans loved Baby What A Big Surprise and If You Leave Me Now, and plenty did not. I have nothing against great love ballads, as in Colour My World, Memories of Love and Hope For Love. But for me there is little value in a tenor singing a sweet love song. It is usually predictable and boring, like putting sugar on honey — (unless the music is good enough in spite of the vocals, as on Just You 'n' Me — or if the name of your band is Bread). Yet I would suggest that If You Leave Me Now is a much better song than Baby What A Big Surprise.

But even with that negative opinion, I can actually respect the quality of the production and involvement of the band on both of those songs, compared to the direness that was on the subsequent 3 albums, HS, 13 and XIV. IYLMN and BWABS were better productions than most of the stuff on the next 3 albums. FWIW I'm guessing those albums were so bad not only because of the loss of TK, but perhaps even more so because of the loss of JWG's leadership. Year's later, I believe the band even acknowledged that they misjudged the impact of JWG, even with his imperfections.

Personally I'd say that a good producer is as difficult to replace as a lead vocalist, lead guitatist, drummer or song writer.

 

I like all of the Columbia-era ballads. Most of the David-Foster-era ballads are just sappy because there was little going on musically, and he tended to tone down the horns. It's the horn section that made the Chicago sound, and where producer James William Guercio excelled. David Foster and Phil Ramone toned them down or removed them altogether, weather by arrangement, or via the mix. And, if Terry Kath did the vocal on a ballad, there usually wasn't any horns, either, but he gave the song that simple, honest, intimate delivery. To my ears, Peter Cetera without the musical embellishments, is just plain annoying. The best ballads he did under David Foster and Phil Ramone, IMO, are "Hard Habit To Break" and "No Tell Lover".

If a record turns out bad, just look at the producer. Of course, if a producer has crappy material to work with, nothing can save him or her.

 

"Hard Habit to Break" is the best ballad Chicago ever got near. There are other really nice ballads but most of them (especially the James Pankow-written ones) are destroyed by bad lyrics. He should never have been allowed to write lyrics. The results are always ludicrous. "Hard Habit..." had a really nice lyric (the "spreading my love too thin" line is silly but the tune is full of "money lines" throughout). The melody (as essentially re-written by David Foster) sounds incredible, the arrangement is first-rate (and Grammy Award-winning), and Peter & Bill should always be forced to sing together.

Ed

 

Uh...lyrics? What lyrics? I don't really notice them when I listen to Chicago ballads. I think "Beginnings" and "Just You & Me" are Chicago's best ballads.

I don't know about you, but among the first things I notice about a song is the music and the sound. The lyrics come last.

 

Yet it seems the most disliked album is 14-- and in terms of track record and overall influence, Chicago never had a better producer than Tom Dowd.

 

I'd argue that VII was their last truly great record, after that some decent stuff but nothing as consistent.

 

Dowd may have been a great producer, but he was an awful pair-up for Chicago. I wonder what Maurice White could have done if he had produced them.

 

1-7 were all very strong with the possible exception of VI. Seems to be a band that really divides people though. I agree with earlier post that 2 was one of the great all time albums. I like to refer to them as "Americanized Prog" substituting Jazz for Classical as the building blocks. I thought the first 7 albums were all fantastic. By the way, if you love Chicago 2, whatever you have to pay for the long out of print DVD-A version is worth every penny. Somehow they removed all the mud and veils over everything and it sounds fantastic. Surround version also fantastic. I have no idea why or what masters were used but it barely sounds like the boxed in original at all. Someone did some great work on this one.

 

Which helps prove my point. I don't know much about T. Dowd, but apparently he is respected for his other work. But just because I love chocolate and I love horseradish, doesn't mean they work well together. Dowd's good reputation didn't allow him to succeed with Chicago. Guercio succeeded with Chicago for around ten years because he was the right fit. THAT is hard to replace. So I would summarize, that as good as Dowd's reputation was, Chicago never had a better producer than Guercio. Results are what matters. Others may mention Foster, but 2 out of 3 years of financial success doesn't matter to most fans who only care about the music—music that they respect for integrity of originality and a challenging, dynamic aesthetic.

 

That's because its a remix, and not everyone believes in remixes. If all you're interested in is stereo the HDTracks download is the same master but with more dynamics.

 

Yes it does indeed sound remixed, and I didn't know about the HD tracks version, good to know. BTW love the profile pic !

 

Those are good but may I throw in Happy Man from 7
Till We Meet Again from 8 as well as The first movement of Brand New Love Affair
And the ageless, incomparable Color My World from 2