Sinatra / Capitol Sound Quality and General Discussion: "Where Are You?" (1957 album)*

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by MLutthans, Jan 13, 2010.

  1. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Back to actual sound comparison:

    With help from kind folks like @stevelucille and @ArneW , I have 10 clips posted from 10- and 11-song abridged stereo LP releases. Three of these were not posted on the old version of the site, so there's some actual new stuff here, including a clip from the Australian pressing discussed in the posts leading up to this one.

    Audio here: http://www.11fifty.com/Site_108/1957_-_Where_Are_You_2_3.html

    Personally, I'm not wild about the stereo mix used on these disks, but they are not bad, I guess. (Audible limiting abounds here.) The two that strike me as being sub-par compared to the others are the Japanese LP and the G4 cut from 1984.

    Thoughts?

    Also, the mono comparisons and clips from 2-track reel ZD-17 are still posted here.
     
    DmitriKaramazov likes this.
  2. Henley

    Henley Forum Resident

    Location:
    The Netherlands
    I strongly prefer the tonality on the Aussie edition, but this can also be the result of the used chain for the needledrop. I agree that the G4 is badly doctored...
     
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  3. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Moving slowly forward with the new comparisons......

    •Mono LP clips already posted top of the page here
    •Several clips from the unique stereo mix on open reel #ZD-17, January, 1958, already posted midway down that same page
    •Abridged stereo LP clips already posted top of the page here
    Newly added: clips from the four unabridged, 12-song stereo LP releases, farther down that same page, here.
     
  4. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Now added: Clips from "Lonely Town" from those unabridged, 12-song LP editions: http://www.11fifty.com/Site_108/1957_-_Where_Are_You_2_3.html
     
  5. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Now added: Clips from "Lonely Town" from those unabridged, 12-song LP editions: http://www.11fifty.com/Site_108/1957_-_Where_Are_You_2_3.html
     
  6. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Now added: Clips from "Lonely Town" from those unabridged, 12-song LP editions: http://www.11fifty.com/Site_108/1957_-_Where_Are_You_2_3.html
     
  7. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Just realized: We are nearly five years into this thread, and still don't have a clip from a 9:00 rainbow label pressing. o_O

    If you've got one and are willing to contribute a clip, please send a message my way. Thanks!
     
    CBackley likes this.
  8. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Wrapping up the overhaul of the WHERE ARE YOU website, here's what you can find:

    •Page one, mono LPs, mono CD, and original 9-song stereo tape release: http://www.11fifty.com/Site_108/1957_-_Where_Are_You_3.html

    •Page two, abridged 10- and 11-song stereo LPs and 11-song stereo tape: http://www.11fifty.com/Site_108/1957_-_Where_Are_You_2_3.html

    •Page three, unabridged (12-song) stereo LPs and stereo CDs: http://www.11fifty.com/Site_108/1957_-_Where_Are_You_unabridged.html

    •Page four: Differences (different edits, mostly) between the stereo/mono releases: http://www.11fifty.com/Site_108/1957_-_Where_Are_You_2_3_2.html

    Page five, conclusions: http://www.11fifty.com/Site_108/1957_-_Where_Are_You3_2.html

    In the area of conclusions, nothing much has changed for me (but I invite others to chime in, of course). My favorite way to hear the album remains via the 1958 stereo reel mix, but I realize that it is abridged down to nine tracks. SONICALLY, despite some technical shortcomings, it remains my favorite. In terms of stereo LPs, I think it's pretty hard to go wrong with any of the four 12-song stereo LPs. The MFSL is the best of the lot, but they all are decently mastered. (I wish I liked the mix better.) I'll even give a little thumbs up to the 1975 Dutch LP, which was the first time that a 12-song stereo LP edition (one song still mono) appeared on the market. The sound is a little pillowy (probably the result of being cut from a dub), but the tone is very nice. In the mono department, the recent MFSL releases are great. In terms of CDs, I think the 1991 Walsh remix is the way to go, despite the channels being reversed. It's really the only stereo release this title has ever had that has wide-open dynamics. The tone is good, too. Maybe the vocal could be a little more forward than it is, but on the whole, it works pretty well. Larry Walsh did a nice job here, IMO.

    As I've said before, if you want the full-on "Where Are You" experience as originally intended, that involves getting a mono cut, and the best ones are the MFSL. If you want stereo on this title (as I do, despite the fact that I COVER THE WATERFRONT is a mono-only recording), then you've got some decisions to make, but there are some good options out there.

    SO...my "co-winners" remain the MFSL for mono and the Walsh CD for stereo.
     
    Last edited: Feb 27, 2015
  9. Oso Blanco

    Oso Blanco Forum Resident

    Location:
    Berlin
    My Walsh CD does not have this indexing error ...
     
  10. Bob F

    Bob F Senior Member

    Location:
    Massachusetts USA
    What is the "matrix" text on the inner ring of your Walsh CD? Is it a US pressing?
     
  11. Oso Blanco

    Oso Blanco Forum Resident

    Location:
    Berlin
    It says "Made in EU", the matrix text is AB62057-01 and 7912092 ... it also says "manufactured by optimal media GmbH", which suggests that it's made in Germany.
     
  12. Bob F

    Bob F Senior Member

    Location:
    Massachusetts USA
    Much different than the original (US) Walsh pressing. The "7912092" are the last digits of the US catalog number, so it's probably the same digital master, but if the indexing error is fixed, I wonder if anything else is different?
     
  13. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    I see Ebay.de in Bob's future.......
     
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  14. Bob F

    Bob F Senior Member

    Location:
    Massachusetts USA
    DmitriKaramazov likes this.
  15. Oso Blanco

    Oso Blanco Forum Resident

    Location:
    Berlin
    It is ... Amazon says that I purchased this item on 14 Jan 2012. If they are still selling the same pressing, this is the one without the indexing error.
     
    Bob F likes this.
  16. Oso Blanco

    Oso Blanco Forum Resident

    Location:
    Berlin
    I just compared it to the sample provided in the first post of this thread, and my CD has a little lower volume.
     
  17. Bob F

    Bob F Senior Member

    Location:
    Massachusetts USA
    Hmm... I might see Amazon.co.uk in my future. I'm just afraid of the hit my pocketbook might take if it turns out they fiddled with the Walsh Where Are You? mastering. There are many other Walsh CDs for sale in the EU that might need to be examined. See —> Larry Walsh EMI-Capitol CDs: Amazon UK links.

    I'd be interested in seeing an EAC extraction report and/or a DR listing for this one.
     
  18. Oso Blanco

    Oso Blanco Forum Resident

    Location:
    Berlin
    I've never done this before, but I'll see what I can do!
     
    Bob F likes this.
  19. Bob F

    Bob F Senior Member

    Location:
    Massachusetts USA
    For comparison, this is what I'd like to see:
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    Exact Audio Copy V0.99 prebeta 5 from 4. May 2009
    EAC extraction logfile from 24. May 2014, 10:16
    Frank Sinatra / Where Are You? [Walsh]

    TOC of the extracted CD

    Track | Start | Length | Start sector | End sector
    ---------------------------------------------------------
    1 | 0:00.32 | 3:31.65 | 32 | 15921
    2 | 3:32.22 | 3:29.13 | 15922 | 31609
    3 | 7:01.35 | 2:59.30 | 31610 | 45064
    4 | 10:00.65 | 3:08.15 | 45065 | 59179
    5 | 13:09.05 | 3:29.30 | 59180 | 74884
    6 | 16:38.35 | 4:14.47 | 74885 | 93981
    7 | 20:53.07 | 2:53.25 | 93982 | 106981
    8 | 23:46.32 | 4:52.68 | 106982 | 128949
    9 | 28:39.25 | 3:05.02 | 128950 | 142826
    10 | 31:44.27 | 3:14.00 | 142827 | 157376
    11 | 34:58.27 | 3:58.00 | 157377 | 175226
    12 | 38:56.27 | 2:52.03 | 175227 | 188129
    13 | 41:48.30 | 2:48.30 | 188130 | 200759
    14 | 44:36.60 | 2:53.72 | 200760 | 213806
    15 | 47:30.57 | 3:24.18 | 213807 | 229124
    16 | 50:55.00 | 3:08.40 | 229125 | 243264
    ===============================================
    Analyzed folder: C:\CD\Frank Sinatra\Where Are You [Walsh]\
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    DR Peak RMS Filename
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    DR13 -1.73 dB -18.90 dB 01 Where Are You .wav
    DR11 -6.02 dB -21.09 dB 02 The Night We Called It a Day.wav
    DR11 -2.65 dB -18.76 dB 03 I Cover the Waterfront.wav
    DR11 -5.03 dB -20.48 dB 04 Maybe You'll Be There.wav
    DR12 -4.08 dB -22.98 dB 05 Laura.wav
    DR12 -4.92 dB -20.99 dB 06 Lonely Town.wav
    DR11 -5.15 dB -20.54 dB 07 Autumn Leaves.wav
    DR12 -2.80 dB -18.66 dB 08 I'm a Fool to Want You.wav
    DR13 -2.70 dB -21.14 dB 09 I Think of You.wav
    DR10 -5.53 dB -19.85 dB 10 Where Is the One .wav
    DR12 -4.50 dB -19.52 dB 11 There's No You.wav
    DR13 -6.25 dB -23.34 dB 12 Baby, Won't You Please Come Home .wav
    DR12 -6.42 dB -21.01 dB 13 I Can Read Between the Lines.wav
    DR12 -5.76 dB -20.53 dB 14 It Worries Me.wav
    DR12 -3.91 dB -19.30 dB 15 Rain (Falling from the Skies).wav
    DR12 -3.02 dB -18.74 dB 16 Don't Worry 'Bout Me.wav
    ------------------------------------------------------------
    Number of files: 16
    Official DR value: DR12
    ===============================================
     
  20. Oso Blanco

    Oso Blanco Forum Resident

    Location:
    Berlin
    So, here is the TOC:

    Track | Start | Länge | Startsektor | Endsektor
    -------------------------------------------------------
    1 | 0:00.32 | 3:31.65 | 32 | 15921
    2 | 3:32.22 | 3:29.13 | 15922 | 31609
    3 | 7:01.35 | 2:59.30 | 31610 | 45064
    4 | 10:00.65 | 3:08.15 | 45065 | 59179
    5 | 13:09.05 | 3:29.30 | 59180 | 74884
    6 | 16:38.35 | 4:14.47 | 74885 | 93981
    7 | 20:53.07 | 2:53.25 | 93982 | 106981
    8 | 23:46.32 | 4:52.68 | 106982 | 128949
    9 | 28:39.25 | 3:05.02 | 128950 | 142826
    10 | 31:44.27 | 3:14.00 | 142827 | 157376
    11 | 34:58.27 | 3:49.18 | 157377 | 174569
    12 | 38:47.45 | 3:00.60 | 174570 | 188129
    13 | 41:48.30 | 2:48.30 | 188130 | 200759
    14 | 44:36.60 | 2:53.72 | 200760 | 213806
    15 | 47:30.57 | 3:24.18 | 213807 | 229124
    16 | 50:55.00 | 3:08.40 | 229125 | 243264

    I'd like to post the peak levels a well, but getting them from EAC seems to take forever. Is there a way to speed up the process?
     
    Bob F likes this.
  21. Bob F

    Bob F Senior Member

    Location:
    Massachusetts USA
    The only difference from the original US CD is the fix to the cue index for track 12. Everything else is identical, as far as timing goes.

    US version:

    11 | 34:58.27 | 3:58.00 | 157377 | 175226
    12 | 38:56.27 | 2:52.03 | 175227 | 188129

    EU version:

    11 | 34:58.27 | 3:49.18 | 157377 | 174569
    12 | 38:47.45 | 3:00.60 | 174570 | 188129

    The complete data must be extracted to get the peak levels. You can speed it up by turning off "secure" extraction mode. For comparison, these are the peak levels of each track on the 1991 US CD:
    1. 81.9 %
    2. 50.0 %
    3. 73.7 %
    4. 56.0 %
    5. 62.4 %
    6. 56.7 %
    7. 55.2 %
    8. 72.4 %
    9. 73.2 %
    10. 52.9 %
    11. 59.5 %
    12. 48.6 %
    13. 47.7 %
    14. 51.5 %
    15. 63.7 %
    16. 70.6 %
     
  22. Oso Blanco

    Oso Blanco Forum Resident

    Location:
    Berlin
    I had to switch to Burst Mode to make it faster ... the peak levels of my CD are matching yours exactly!
     
    Bob F likes this.
  23. Bob F

    Bob F Senior Member

    Location:
    Massachusetts USA
    Thanks! I'm confident then that the only change was to the bad start index on track 12. That makes the current EU CD a desirable item to own. —> amazon.co.uk/dp/B0000089ES
     
    DmitriKaramazov likes this.
  24. Bob F

    Bob F Senior Member

    Location:
    Massachusetts USA
    And thank you for reporting this! It's a small detail regarding a 24-year-old mastering error, but a nice addition to the collected trivia which forms the knowledge base here at SHF for us Sinatra nuts. :)
     
  25. MMM

    MMM Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Lodi, New Jersey
    Matt, sorry I missed this (forum didn't automatically notify...).

    I'd pick the MoFi hybrid as best for the mono version overall, with their LP just a hair behind, then a D1 original, which has its merits in the midrange, particularly in the way Frank's voice "speaks". The MoFi is more wideband and best as a whole though.

    For the stereo versions, first comes the 2 track reel by far sonically, though it's not complete, and does have that manufacturing flaw that makes Frank "wander" - normally I'd not "rate" such a release, though since it's otherwise superior, I have to give it its due. Of the stereo LP versions (not a huge fan of the mix though), I'd pick either the MoFi or the '84 Dutch LPs, somewhat dependent on the song. Larry's CD is nice in its way too.

    If I could only have one release, it'd be the MoFi SACD...
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2015

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