I have both vinyl original pressings. One is, as mentioned above, a Stan Ricker "SR/2" pressing which, I guess, refers to half speed mastering also. Try tracking this with a lightweight Bang & Olufson table and arm with MMC2 cartridge. It plays beautifully until the notorious canons. There's some breakup, but the dang B&O kept tracking! Pressed in Germany, it's an utterly wonderful record. Side Two is the music that makes it. And tracks more easily. I also have the non- SR/2 pressing. Runout space is different. Did Stan Ricker master this one too? Also, it has a gatefold sleeve. I'm guessing this is the earlier pressing. It'd be nice if they made this available in hi-res. They do have a later recording in SACD but the performance doesn't compare to Kunzel's. The cd of the original is nice (I have the latter, DIDX) but nothing like the lp.
This is the one I just bought: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00K5SUG10 It lists as a "limited edition box set". I'm assuming this is because it comes in a box, rather than a traditional sleeve. Other than a very slim book that comes packed in it, there's nothing else particularly box-settish about it - just the single disc. It is one of the nicest sounding pressings in my collection, though. Great recording, great performance, great pressing! I actually just snagged the Telarc SACD off eBay to compare...
Those grooves on your FIM reissue look a little more friendly than the original seen below. Notice the 45° angle! What on earth can play that without distortion?
There are a couple of videos on Youtube - but none of them can track the canons without some breakup. Even a Sonus Red/Gold cartridge can do it, but the breakup is there. My less expensive MMC4 used to make the cartridge jump out of the groove, but again, the MMC2 tracked it. The MMC2 is also a great TRACER - meaning getting more info out of the grooves. Can ANY system handle this without breakup? Where does the breakup come from? The cartridge or the amp?
I was wrong. Thanks for correcting me. So the original is on SACD, and for only 20 bucks! Looking forward to your comparison.
My Zu Denon tracks it pretty well with some breakup. It's gotta be the cartridge in the setup....those big dynamic blasts are a challenge for most cartridges. I've heard that the Miyajima upper-shelf carts often do well with them, as do some of the Shures.
The cd is great, but doesn't hold a candle to the original vinyl. Especially side two. The wonderful BLAM of side two is not there. Otherwise, it's a very fine cd. I think there are better cd's out there, but I love this performance. Better than the all analog Mercury Dorati - on cd, SACD and original vinyl.
Very interesting, Thank you for that info. It is my finding that too, that other Telarc discs surpass their concurrent CD issues. BTW, I have a Bernstein NY Philharmonic performance that I like a lot too. There are many different Columbia issues/ pressings of this performance. The first pressing on 360 is shrill sounding, just an awful thing. The same performance was later issued on "Tchaikovsky's Greatest Hits", a 70's pressing on the Gray Columbia label. I will try to find this one among the thousands of LP's I have in climate controlled storage... (too many stored in uniform size boxes, with stiffeners, neatly stacked, not organized... but know what I have... go figure) The Gtst Hits 70's pressing is lively and dynamic, the cannons forceful and powerful, as well as directional, the entire battery at all points between left and right. Extreme directional bass requires the groove to be cut deep, as the cutting stylus, and playback stylus must transcribe sharply at 45 degree angles. The groove resembles the Telarc disc, characterized by a wide margin and rather wild groove sweeps. This is not a special half speed master nor audiophile issue, just a nicely cut and pressed record. There are also later issues on Columbia, but these records are cut with lower pitch, and compression, no comparison to the 70's pressing. If I find it, I'll post the matrix info. Also noteworthy, this record plays better to my ears with some low boost below 200 cycles. The sub-sonics are there too, the cannons hit hard.
I just checked my CD version and I've got the DIDZ version. It was actually the first CD I ever bought. The CD case has a post-it note on it from when I ripped it with dBpoweramp many years ago. The note is "??? not in AccurateRip, different pressing?". Yup. It's a different pressing. Time to go buy the DIDX version. It's not a CD that I play any more. It'll be fun though to try the DIDX version and relive the days and exploration of early digital.
John Buchanan said: "I'm sure a Shure V15 would (track them) and any of the other super trackers" I've had this recording for ages and had problems with the cannon shots as so many others until I put a V15 Mk V MR on my AR ES-1 and Voila, no more problems (except those related to setting proper VTA with that stupid AR-supplied arm). As to the OP's mention of a distinct "pop" during the cannon shots, that may not be mistracking. Have you ever heard a real cannon shot? Well, I hadn't until several years ago when the wife and I were tooling around New Jersey and happend upon some type of historic battle recreation complete with real cannon fire. (I assume they were using blanks :>)) Regardless, there IS a distinct pop in the shot, and I hear this in my copy of this record too. So the OP may actually be getting a good read from his cartridge.
I just re-ripped my DIDZ version on CD. And analyzed it with CueTools. Here's an interesting part from the log: [CTDB TOCID: 9t_sk0m_XaJ7JgQ1Lomb1TrkL0Q-] found. Track | CTDB Status 1 | (12/19) Accurately ripped 2 | (13/19) Accurately ripped 3 | ( 9/19) Accurately ripped, or (4/19) differs in 410 samples @04:17:56 I wonder if the difference between the DIDZ version and DIDX version is just 410 samples at 04:17:56? I may find out once I get the DIDX version.
I have the DIDX version. Here’s an excerpt from the EAC log: Track | Start | Length | Start sector | End sector --------------------------------------------------------- 1 | 0:00.00 | 15:43.10 | 0 | 70734 2 | 15:43.10 | 15:19.25 | 70735 | 139684 3 | 31:02.35 | 4:17.22 | 139685 | 158981
The waveforms were pretty different for each, much more than a few hundred samples. I really wish I knew if I still had the logs for the didz version but I may have just deleted the rip. I definitely have the rip and log of the didx but no access to it at the moment.
I think that pop sound you mention is the initial sound of the cannon as it begins to fires. I remember it from my LP.
After reading this thread I want to purchase the CD of this album. Is the one available on Amazon with catalog number CD-80041 the one to get, and the recording being discussed? I ask because there is also another version that says DSD mastering and has catalog number CD-80541. This is a different recording, correct? I want to make sure I get the original recording being discussed in this thread. Don't have a turntable so I want to check out the CD.
The DSD version is a whole different performance and recording. Look for the CD-80041 version with this version of the cover rather than the original version of the cover. The CD versions with the updated cover art will all be the DIDX mastering. Some of the CDs with the old style Telarc artwork will be the DIDZ mastering that has clipped cannons. I just got a DIDX version today that has the new style Telarc art work. I haven't listened to it yet. I just got finished ripping it and importing it to the library.
Thanks for the info. The one for sale new on Amazon shows the DIDX cover you mentioned, and not the original version, so hopefully it is the version I want.
This is one release that has to be heard on vinyl. While I prefer the performance of the original Kunzel on any format, the vinyl has to be heard to be believed. Had no idea the initial cd was clipped! Have the later DIDX cd and it does sound very nice, but there's no BLAM as on the side two of the vinyl. Even an inexpensive turntable will blow the cd away.
Years ago at WBUR in Boston before "Car Talk" was syndicated to NPR, immediately preceding it on Saturday mornings was "Shop Talk", hosted by members of the Boston Audio Society. They tried to play this record on the air the week it came out. Wouldn't matter if it mistracked or not, the station's limiters squished it like a bug.
