History of CBS Records 30th Street Studio NYC (many pictures)

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by DMortensen, Oct 21, 2014.

  1. Raylinds

    Raylinds Resident Lake Surfer

    That is the Sheik restaurant that used to be on 30th near 3rd Ave. until the mid 60s.

    It was interesting to see the cab ride up Park avenue at the beginning- it was strange to see Grand Central without the Pan Am (later the Met Life) Building looming over it. Great stuff.
     
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  2. bluemooze

    bluemooze Senior Member

    Location:
    Frenchtown NJ USA
    :edthumbs:
     
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  3. DMortensen

    DMortensen Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Seattle, WA USA
    Ray, you are awesome! You get the extra points, which will translate into fabulous prizes and gift certificates undoubtedly worth ousands of dollars.

    Can you narrow down the location a little? Walking distance to the studio? That wasn't the place that's the Banc now, is it? That's next door to where the studio was. I think the Banc used to be a bank, but Frank Laico would talk about the musicians immediately disappearing to the bar and that's where you could find them when they were needed.

    In other news, yesterday I finally got the permits and plans from the Dept. of Buildings (long convoluted process) and got to go through them a little a few minutes ago. They are all jumbled up in a pdf 93 pages long, but it looks like we have a trail of who did the modifications when and what the entire building looked like on the inside.

    Or might have looked like if they'd built the plans they filed which they didn't, based on the pics we've seen.

    Longer story short, it cost nearly $500 to get that stuff, and that was kind of a surprise. There didn't seem to be an alternative given the timing and how terrible the microfilm looked on the viewers, so I suppose it was money well-spent, but still.

    It's going to take quite a bit of time to process (mentally and physically) what's happened over the last couple of weeks and the many pictures and videos that I've acquired and made.

    Another good thing yesterday: I got to spend several hours with Doug Pomeroy picking his brain and recording that, and he got to see the DOB stuff first.

    And Doug, looking through this pdf today, it does talk about putting an echo chamber upstairs, but in 1961 IIRC, definitely not earlier than that era. So you and Frank could both be right, there were echo chambers upstairs and downstairs both. The location upstairs was somewhat surprising, but I'll save that detail for another time....

    Saturday it looks like I'll be interviewing Art Kendy, longtime CBS engineer, along with Peter Munves, Masterworks promotion manager starting in 1953 and later with RCA and Polygram. That should be fun.

    Oh, and Doug tells me I totally mangled (my word, not his) George McGlinchey's name in the attendance list above. Doug is clearly too polite to say anything negative here, and I have to say it was really a treat to get to spend a little time with him. He is very patient and a good conversationalist and has a pretty encyclopedic memory even though he doesn't think so. I really enjoyed our time together and hope that happens again.

    For that matter, this whole three weeks has been a gas. Did I tell you I talked for a few hours with Don Puluse? All of these CBS guys are really class acts, and that must have been an incredible bunch to be around. I think when you have Goddard Lieberson at the head that the class just flows down and wraps everyone up and makes everyone want to be their best and have the best working with them. That was an incredible time.

    On with the day!
     
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  4. DMortensen

    DMortensen Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Seattle, WA USA
    Actually, while waiting for the wife to get ready to go (usually she waits for me), Googling "Sheik Restaurant NYC" finds a guy's Master's thesis or something, and in the footnotes:

    "2 In Dr. Nagib T. Abdou’s Medicine and Commerce (New York: Nagib T. Abdou, 1922), there is an entry for Kirdahy Bros. Oriental Restaurant at 87 Washington St. In Nasib Arida’s and Sabri Andria’s Syrian American Directory Almanac (New York: Aseeb and Arida, 1930), the Kirdahy Bros. restaurant is listed as “The Sheik” restaurant. In May 21, 1934, New York World Telegram article it is listed as being at 241 Fifth Avenue, and the restaurant remained on Fifth Avenue through at least the early 1950s, finally ending up on Lexington Avenue in the 1960s."

    http://lebanesestudies.ojs.chass.ncsu.edu/index.php/mashriq/article/view/42/102

    The first part of that essay talks about the Sheik restaurant run by the Kirdahy Bros. in a variety of places, and the footnote narrows it down to Lexington

    This is interesting, because, remember how people say that the Church "was an abandoned Armenian church"? We have shown that to be not quite correct from several angles, but it was indeed in part an Armenian church, and in fact the area around 30th St and Lexington Avenue (actually down into the 20's) was called Little Armenia and had a ton of Armenian and apparently Lebanese restaurants and other kinds of Middle Eastern restaurants. We used to go to a place called The Balkan Armenian every time we went to NYC (my sister lived 6 blocks North of the Church same block). The Armenian Church that vacated 30th St. is still on E. 34th on the other side of 3rd Ave, and George Avakian's family's rug store(s) were in the area, according to Frank Laico.

    When they needed rugs for kids to sit on for the first live Sesame Street recording session in 30th St., Frank said he got the rugs by calling George.

    So it's not surprising that people using 30th St Studio would have been comfortable going to a Middle Eastern restaurant for a break, like they did in the Gould video, since there were a ton in the immediate neighborhood. And for those not familiar with NYC, Lexington is the next street west of 3rd, so it's real nearby.

    Good find to flesh out the story of the studio, Ray!
     
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  5. Raylinds

    Raylinds Resident Lake Surfer

    You are an amazing detective! At some point I am going to the area to have a look around and maybe take some pictures. I would love to figure out what the Sheik is now.
     
  6. doug pomeroy

    doug pomeroy Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY, USA
    When I worked at Columbia, those diffusers were on the back wall of Studio 'B', and yes they could be rotated horizontally, I don't remember by how much. Why both sides were tapered I don't know, but probably the idea was to prevent a standing wave from reflections off the back wall. In all the many sessions I worked in that studio, I never saw them adjusted by any of the Control Engineers. I believe they were largely ineffective - most of the artists were positioned near the control room glass, very far away from the back wall. - Doug Pomeroy

    .
     
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  7. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    I'm in Ireland at the moment and don't really have time to search the thread, but I believe you can see the diffusers in various shots of B, as well as in the Monk video. Positioned vertically.
     
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  8. DMortensen

    DMortensen Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Seattle, WA USA
    My "like" was for you being in Ireland...
     
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  9. bmoregnr

    bmoregnr Forum Rezident

    Location:
    1060 W. Addison
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  10. doug pomeroy

    doug pomeroy Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY, USA
    Thinking back, I think what I said was wrong. They were vertical, not horizontal!
    Sorry about that!
     
  11. DMortensen

    DMortensen Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Seattle, WA USA
    I think you said it right the first time, if I get what you are saying.

    The fins in a vertical position (floor to ceiling) would rotate horizontally; if they were horizontal (wall to wall) they would rotate vertically.

    Could there have been absorption behind them, so that rotating them so you were looking at the narrow edge opened up the wall to maximum absorption? And if they were rotated so that the broadest side were visible then there would be the most reflection and the least absorption?

    The fact that both faces were the same kind of argues against that, though, as you'd still get reflection from every angle other than a direct 90 degree source-to-wall angle.

    Those things are confusing!
     
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  12. DMortensen

    DMortensen Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Seattle, WA USA
    This book is totally news to me, and just skimming it is really enjoyable. How cool to hear people talk in what seems like their own words and share their love of what they do, in this case recording.

    It's especially relevant to this thread because so many of them were at different eras of CBS and in the brief parts I read look at the same thing (chamber pre-delay) from different angles and describe slightly different aspects.

    Thank you for posting this!!!
     
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  13. bmoregnr

    bmoregnr Forum Rezident

    Location:
    1060 W. Addison
    Please pardon my guesswork with the following winged diffuser theory; and as there are clearly experts here please feel free to tell me I am way off base as I know this is a stretch. Trying to find out more about those wings I was not sure how they would square with shots of wall panels such as the next two, where they are curved but at their ends they don’t seem to pull away from the wall at the end the way a wing would. Maybe the bottom one possibly because of the layering, but that has got to rattle some no? Also would not those wall panels in the photos be for absorption, which the wings in question would not really help with right?

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    Searching around for the winged nature of a wooden diffuser or baffle I did run across a gearslutz discussion on what got refined to a name of “time domain diffuser”. It starts here in post 274 with a few follow up posts below it. Now all of that is way above my pay grade but I am guessing the winged nature of it causes delay in the refracted sound, so using both sides of the wings would be the goal.

    Now the key to my delusions of cracking this case came from @lukpac who likely knew all of this already, but since he is tipping a few in Ireland… I checked the Monk video and I was struggling to find anything close to our wings then bang…

    [​IMG]

    Do you think the wings were set up vertically in that box structure for a diffuser effect? It is tough to judge the length compared to the drug store pictures, what do they look like in the Monk shot, maybe 8-10 feet high. I noticed in the drug store shot with Johnny Ray and Billy Joel named amongst others, they may come in two pieces, say so you could change the height of the diffuser maybe? Also I admit in that Monk shot it is tough to gauge the edges of those, do they come to a point as well as the drug store wings? Ok, time for the experts now, thanks for indulging me.
     
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  14. DMortensen

    DMortensen Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Seattle, WA USA
    I'm certainly not a wing expert, but the first two pics you posted are of 30th St and a different kind of diffuser. From other pics, those are clearly plywood and solidly bolted to the wall.

    The third pic you posted with Monk really looks like what we are talking about. They do look like diffusers (for whatever reason) and appear to be one piece. And they are probably in the right studio, as that video is not in 30th St.

    My guess about the ones in the drug store is that they were cut to fit that space. I wouldn't think the height was adjustable as that would be a major production to do so.

    Another good find, though, as it illustrates what is probably them in use. BTW, gotta leave now, have to read your Gearslutz link later.
     
  15. DMortensen

    DMortensen Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Seattle, WA USA
    Just about to leave NYC and go home; had an unbelievable day yesterday with Art Kendy, mixer and mastering engineer for CBS in the 60's and 70's, and Peter Mulves, head of promotions at CBS from 1953 and in a surprising number of pictures that I have. Peter spent HUGE time at 30th St. and was a fountain of information, and I thought the same of Art until we got to Peter. They are obviously long-time friends, and it was fun to see their interaction. I got Art on video (noon-3pm) and then Art and Peter on audio only (3:30pm-6:30?pm) which I hope I can make into something useful and enjoyable.

    This has been an EPIC three weeks in terms of this thread, and I look forward to sharing some of what I've learned as it's processed.

    Thanks to everyone here in the thread and in person who have made this time so incredible.
     
  16. Chris C

    Chris C Music was my first love and it will be my last!

    Location:
    Ohio
    This post is a bit strange I must admit, but it sort of fits this ongoing thread and I'm hopeful that some of you may find it interesting all the same. While doing a little random google'ing yesterday, I came across this old video of Johnny Mathis on "Oprah", from 1991, where he is actually singing live to the original 1958 Percy Faith arranged "backing track" of "The Christmas Song". We should contact Johnny and see if he still has these backing tracks in his collection, as they would make for an interesting release on their own!

    Mr. Mortensen, how I envy how you and all of those other wonderful friends and fans of the old Columbia 30th St. studios, had the recent chance to visit those wonderful historic places of yesterday together. I dedicate this one to all of you, with thanks for your dedication and for this most wonderful thread!

     
  17. DMortensen

    DMortensen Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Seattle, WA USA
    Wow, Chris, that's really a neat Christmas present! Thank you!!!!

    I have some gifts, too, for you and the other readers of this thread.

    The first one is that I've been reading the book "The Label", by Gary Marmorstein, upon the recommendation of some people that I've interviewed recently.

    http://www.amazon.com/Label-Story-C...50&sr=8-1&keywords=The+Label+Gary+Marmorstein

    Pretty reasonable price for a hardcover, used. The book is huge, it's over 600 pages. In addition to reading about many of the names that I've been seeing who worked at the studio, there was one gem about Vin Liebler: he was the engineer for a bunch of not all the sides that Columbia eventually wound up with that were recorded by Robert Johnson, the Mississippi Delta blues singer and guitarist! I phrase it that way because the company that turned into CBS/CRI was created by acquisition/succession of several record companies that started in the 30's. It's a fascinating read if you are enjoying this thread, although there is minimal attention paid to the facts of the studio that we are most interested in. The first mention that I can find of the studio is that (IIRC) "South Pacific was recorded in the new 30th St Studio" (paraphrased).

    However, there are a ton of specific recording dates listed for lots of sessions, and I look forward to going through and harvesting dates for my session spreadsheet. It's over 300 dates so far, which is a drop in the bucket but still a start.

    Here's a few more gifts, since it's the season:

    I mentioned that while in NYC I got a bunch of building department documents about 207 E. 30th St. I just finished earlier this week extracting and labeling each separate document from the single 93 page pdf that I got from the building dept.; most pages had more than one document, many unrelated to the studio building and a couple not even from this property. There are now 75 relevant documents that will add to our understanding of the evolution and make up of the Church.

    Here are a few from the very beginning:

    [​IMG]

    This is the cover sheet (I think) from the 1874 building permit application showing the architect (J. Cleaveland Cady) and builder (J. E. Sidman, who I've not seen before). There are notes of some sort on the left, and more that are mostly illegible (to me) on the right. I have to confess that I've not read through these closely or grasped their meaning, except: there was a basement; there was a furnace from the very beginning; these documents describe how they were going to build the building and what materials they were going to use in a variety of places.

    Here is the first page of a three page questionnaire, all from the same time:

    [​IMG]

    Pages two and three:

    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]

    I would welcome anyone transcribing these documents and rendering the illegible legible and understandable. I'm going to be traveling for a couple of days starting in a few minutes (more about this later) and will probably be sporadically responding here.

    Merry Christmas/Happy Holidays to you, too!!!!
     
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  18. DMortensen

    DMortensen Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Seattle, WA USA
    Regarding my traveling as mentioned in the post above: On the plane ride home from NYC last time I realized how many doors had opened to me and how it was unlikely many of them would stay open for very long, so I looked at my schedule to find an empty space and found one this week and part of next, so I'm now back in New York and doing more research.

    I spent yesterday in the Sony Archives, thanks to the guys at Battery Studios introducing me to Tom Tierney, head archivist. I spent the day going through the American Federation of Musicians Recording Reports, in which they note the date, the client (mostly Columbia Recording Corp.), the artist(s), what material was recorded, the call and dismissal times, and who all the musicians were. This was to confirm who was to get paid and how much, I think. I made it from 1946-53, and although the reports after 1954 seem to include the studio name, these did not- which was disappointing. However, there were a ton of sessions that I recognized that had to have been at 30th St, so it will take some correlating to get those matched up.

    The other disappointing thing was that the years that I was most interested in, 1948 & 9, when the studio was undergoing the transition from WLIB to CRI/CBS, were almost empty; there were only half a dozen sessions listed for each year, which we know was vastly fewer than reality. When I asked Tom about it, he said what I was seeing was what they have, meaning there are no more sheets and those dates are lost to time. However....

    At the end of the day Tom showed me the appointment books that were used to keep track of which session was in which studio, and those are complete from the '20's or earlier until maybe now (I didn't understand the end dates). Before I leave I intend to go through as many of those as I have time for and try to get a fuller picture of how much the studio was booked. As mentioned earlier in the thread, I have a little over 300 entries in my spreadsheet of 30th St. sessions and know that that is a drop in the bucket.

    The archives have a mandatory 1-2pm lunch break where they are closed and I got to sit in the Sony cafeteria at a big window looking out at the Manhattan office towers in the neighborhood and have lunch. It and the whole experience were pretty cool.

    Wish you were here, etc. Weather is beautiful so far, very comfortable.

    Big thanks to Tom, Vic, Mark, and Dominic.
     
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  19. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Might not be vastly fewer than reality, Dan. There was an AFM recording ban in place for most of 1948, only ending on December 14th. Now, that wouldn't have affected 1949, but it certainly did for 1948.
     
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  20. DMortensen

    DMortensen Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Seattle, WA USA
    Ah, I was trying to remember when that I was there. Do you have the exact dates? It will be interesting to compare them to the studio schedule.

    According to a poster in this thread, that also relates to CBS' purchase of the building.
     
  21. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    The ban started 1/1/48, and recording resumed on 12/14/48.

    Yes, the fact that there was no recording probably made it that much easier to convert Liederkranz for TV use. Which then of course led to the purchase of 30th Street.
     
  22. DMortensen

    DMortensen Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Seattle, WA USA
    Wow, I didn't realize it was a whole year.

    There were NO sessions in 1948 in those AFM sheets, and only 16 in 1949, the earliest in July. The latest in 1947 was Nov. 7. 1950 was gangbusters, with 22 in January alone. Note that I have no studio differentiation on this, meaning I don't know which studio or even which city these sessions were in.

    Can anybody recommend some reading about the strike and its buildup and the return to normal?
     
  23. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
  24. DMortensen

    DMortensen Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Seattle, WA USA
    Another day in the archives. Got through 1954 and 55 and up to April 1956 in the AFM reports, as well as a couple hours in the photo archive.

    They had a number of nice color photos, including color versions of pictures we've seen before in black and white, including that exterior shot from Ashley Kahn's "Kind of Blue" book, but not the others in that sequence. There were a couple of killer shots of that CBS designed linear fader console that I thought was the last console in 30th St, but then there was a beautiful shot of another console that was labeled as 30th St and seemed to be of that same console that was on Jim Reeves' site that was similarly labeled but which we decided was somewhere else.

    IIRC the console that was very briefly shown in that final Glenn Gould session video was the CBS-designed one; do you guys agree? I'm too pooped to look it up, and go in for my final day tomorrow there.

    Also, a stipulation of getting to view all this stuff is that I not post any pictures online or publish them in any way without permission. I'm going to ask for permission for a few of the most interesting things but don't have it now so there's no pics for now.

    Tomorrow I think I'm going to continue on the AFM sheets as that seems to be the most pointed way to get the info even if ALL the sessions are not in the AFM sheets. I learned tonight that I won't be able to take pictures of the appointment scheduling books, and that's kind of just as well because there isn't enough time to do it all anyway, and I'm mostly liking these AFM sheets. Some of the schedulers specifically say "recorded at 207 E. 30th St Studio" or something similar, while one (who unfortunately did a LOT of the sheets) went to the trouble to say "recorded in New York", which is not quite specific enough for my taste. Marvin Holtzman was undoubtedly feeling uncomfortable today wherever he is.

    Interestingly, the very first specific citation for 30th St as the studio for the session didn't occur until October 1954, so there will be a lot of uncertainty before that, not to mention some after.

    My goal is to get through 1959 and we'll see if that happens.
     
  25. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Correct, Dan.
     
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