Why didn't Paul write and record with George after 1970?

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Mister President, Sep 1, 2016.

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  1. czeskleba

    czeskleba Senior Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    To the best of my knowledge, there is only one anecdote supporting the existence of All For Love: Peter Hodgson says that when he visited McCartney in 1995, he was told by Paul that the previous week the Beatles had been working on a song titled "All For Love." That's it. McCartney didn't provide him any details or information about the song. Everything else that's sprung up about this song (including the claims it was written jointly by McCartney and Harrison) is pure unfounded speculation.

    This story is counterbalanced by explicit statements from Lynne that the Beatles only worked on three songs, as well as the fact that are no other instances of McCartney mentioning this song title, nor of any other person directly involved ever mentioning the existence of this song. It seems unlikely they'd keep the existence of the song secret, particularly in light of how much McCartney likes to talk about "Now and Then" and float the idea of completing it someday. The most likely scenario is that either Hodgson misheard, misremembered, or got the song title wrong, or else that "All for Love" was a working title being used for one of the three Lennon songs, most likely "Now and Then."
     
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  2. jasyr

    jasyr Forum Resident

    Paul extrovert, George introvert. (And more pronounced with age...)

    George did stuff musically later for social reasons & to hang with intimate friends.

    Paul is a laid back workaholic maybe? Music was his passion, but always a business though ironically.

    When the Beatles were done they had pretty much burned out their artistic relationship. Pretty simple.
     
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  3. Mike Visco

    Mike Visco Forum Resident

    Location:
    Newark, NJ
    Where did Badman get his info?
     
  4. Ettan

    Ettan Forum Resident

    'Cause George wasn't that great of an artist.
     
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  5. czeskleba

    czeskleba Senior Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    I don't have his book. What exactly does he say? Does he cite any source?

    In all the various discussions of this alleged song that I've seen, either no source is cited or the Hodgson anecdote is the only source, leading me to conclude that everything springs from the Hodgson anecdote. If there's any other source out there, I'd like to hear about it.
     
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  6. Mike Visco

    Mike Visco Forum Resident

    Location:
    Newark, NJ
    I borrowed the Badman book a few years back. It didn't say much, other than the name of the song, an attempt at a Paul George collaboration, and that it ended abruptly or badly. it was later added to the Anthology sessions web page I think linked somewhere in the threads.

    It is discussed in the May 95 sessions. I would put in the link but it has adware on it.
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2016
  7. Wez

    Wez Member

    Yes he was
     
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  8. Wez

    Wez Member

    Yes he was
     
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  9. beatleroadie

    beatleroadie Forum Resident

    This is my theory as well. "All for Love" was a tentative title for "Now and Then," given that the song obviously needed additional lyrics to complete, and perhaps its true that Paul and George worked on writing the additional lyrics together (which ties into the rumor that Paul and George wrote a song together), and some of the lyrics they came up with included the line "All for Love", giving birth to the song's new title. Just speculation, but that could clear this rumor up. Paul considers the song "All for Love" because that's a title he and George were kicking around as they discussed it so he uses that title when talking to Hodgson, and Lynn just remembers it as "Now and Then" because Paul and George never got to the point of rehearsing the additional lyrics or doing vocals for the track in the studio with him. So Lynne tells interviewers, "No there's no such thing as "All For Love."

    It is curious to me though that there's a very Beatles-esque tune on Lynne's next post-Anthology record called "JUST For Love," a phrase that has the exact same meaning as "all for love." Hmmmm....
     
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2016
  10. czeskleba

    czeskleba Senior Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    I've looked through the Anthology reunion sessions webpage, and it doesn't cite any primary sources for claims about the existence of "All For Love," aside from the Hodgson anecdote. It refers to Badman and articles in Beatlefan, none of which apparently cite any primary sources either. So it all seems to be an instance of circular telephone-game style extrapolation... everything is built upon the flimsy foundation of that single anecdote from Hodgson, with piles of rumor and speculation used to fill in the blanks.

    If McCartney had cowritten a new song with George in 1995, I can't think of any reason why he'd be keeping it secret at this point. And he certainly did not tell Hodgson that the song was a cowrite between the two of them.
     
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  11. czeskleba

    czeskleba Senior Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    Given the fact the song has the phrase "All because of you" in it already, it's not hard to imagine "All for love" being added somewhere.
     
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  12. gkmacca

    gkmacca Forum Resident

    Yes, I think that's the most plausible explanation. Anyway, here's Hodgie's own account:


    Peter Hodgson here from Liverpool. I write to clear up the mystery of "All For Love"



    I visited Paul McCartney at his Recording Studio on 27th March 1995 Whilst Paul was showing me around his recording Studio he mentioned that Yoko & Sean had been there 2 weeks previously and that they had recorded a track ( Hiroshima Skies ). He also told me that the previous week, George and Ringo and himself had been working on a song, I then asked him what it was called. His answer was "All For Love."


    [​IMG]


    Now what happened was that a gentleman named Andy Davis ( Record Collector Magazine & Beatles Monthly ) had been phoning me on a number of occasions and I mentioned to him that Paul had mentioned "All For Love" during conversations that we had had. Paul definitely said "All For Love" when I asked him what the song was called that he, George & Ringo had been working on the previous week, 100% "All For Love" were his exact words. The article was in Beatles Monthly and was picked up by various other publications including Keith Badman's book, the sessions for the song would have been March 20-21 1995.
    My visit to Paul's studio in East Sussex took place on 27th March 1995. Rip, I hope that it clears things up, the track was definitely worked on as I know that my ears were not deceiving me when Paul said "All For Love."

    Peter Hodgson Liverpool


    More on "All For Love" -- what Paul really said (with pictures) »
     
  13. Johnny the Fox

    Johnny the Fox hot to hustle

    Location:
    Washington, DC
    Badman says they worked on "Now and Then" on March 20-21, 1995. In May they worked on the (quickly aborted) Harrison-McCartney song "All for Love."
     
  14. moople72

    moople72 Forum Resident

    Location:
    KC
    I'd say George was pretty right about Now and Then---it's a dreary track without the majestic chord structure of Free As a Bird to save it.
     
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  15. gkmacca

    gkmacca Forum Resident

    I thought George quite liked dreary tracks. I mean spiritual. That's what I meant.

    Anyway, surely the appeal of John's demo was that it had a nice theme from him but also left plenty of opportunity for Paul and George to really develop it into a song. That's why I hope Paul DOES return to it.
     
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  16. czeskleba

    czeskleba Senior Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    I assume he does not cite any sources whatsoever for this claim? This assertion even contradicts the one available source (Hodgson) who claims "All For Love" was worked on during the March 20-21 session.

    The reason I keep harping on this is because when we have conflicting reports about a historical event, it's quite irresponsible of a historian to favor one version over another, rather than present them all. And it's particularly irresponsible (and annoying) when pure speculation is presented as fact, as is the case with the claim that "All For Love" was a McCartney/Harrison composition.
     
  17. Johnny the Fox

    Johnny the Fox hot to hustle

    Location:
    Washington, DC
    No citations are given

    Hodgson specifically mentions being at Paul's studio on March 27th, and that it was a couple weeks after the Yoko/"Hiroshima..." session - which checks out because it took place March 11th.

    Badman's entry for March 20-21 states they started further work on "Now and Then" before quickly shelving it. The only other track mentioned is "Grow Old With Me" - not that they necessarily worked on it those days but that it "has now been scrapped altogether."

    "All For Love" is listed in the May 15-16 entry as McCartney-Harrison and the possible third Anthology single.

    Now, I suppose "All For Love" may have begun as the germ of an idea in March, and that Paul mentioned its embryonic existence to Hodgson on March 27th, but Badman does not document the song's reality in March, 1995.
     
  18. No Bull

    No Bull Forum Resident

    Location:
    Orlando Florida
    Not real nice...
     
  19. gkmacca

    gkmacca Forum Resident

    That's why I said 'nice' and not 'real nice'.
     
  20. tappioha

    tappioha Forum Resident

    Location:
    Finland
    I am quite glad to be non-ex-beatle. What I've said and done during my life time would turn against me daily in different discussion forums.
     
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  21. beatleroadie

    beatleroadie Forum Resident

    I think Paul's been quiet about "All for Love" because it didn't work out, right? If they tried writing together, obviously things broke down, they didn't agree or one party didn't like what they came up with and it was abandoned....So why would Paul talk freely about an abandoned song that was a "failure at launch"? Especially with George now gone, he may see it as disrespectful to bring up that subject or it simply puts Paul in a bad light. It may have been that Paul initiated the song, but George didn't like it or nixed it after they worked some on it. Paul might've been more likely to mention it in the late 90s, but no one seemed to ask him about it back then. Once George passed, the time for dirty laundry is over and really only the good memories are shared with press.

    As for "Now and Then" hearing the demo of it, I think what the song needs is a full-on psychedelic arraignment. With orchestration and weird backwards voices. The lyrics are about memory and that can be a strange thing that an avant-garde treatment could bring out.

    This is why I think it could be feasible for Paul, Ringo and Jeff to go back and finish the song now. Maybe with Giles Martin's help finding and selecting samples to weave in and out in order to get George on the track for instance (surely there are some guitar parts/outtakes in the same key?), or lift some vintage Beatles harmonies (a la Love) and incorporate those somehow into the mix.

    Surely this would go to #1 instantly. Billed as the "Final Beatles single!" Or the "Lost Beatles Single"?
    Make it a psychedelic EP with "Carnival of Light" and the long version of "It's All Too Much" as B-sides, and then I'll wake up from my dreaming ha ha.
     
    Last edited: Sep 11, 2016
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  22. czeskleba

    czeskleba Senior Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    Well, he's talked quite freely about "Now and Then" over the years, despite the fact that was a project that didn't work out and was abandoned. Why talk about one abandoned song and not the other, if there are two? And why haven't Ringo or Jeff Lynne ever mentioned it? Lynne has even gone so far as to explicitly deny that they worked on any new material aside from the Lennon demos.

    It's certainly possible that McCartney and Harrison tried to write together, didn't like the result and abandoned it. And it's possible that they all decided to take a vow of silence about it afterwards. Anything is possible. But since there is no evidence that they ever tried to write together, the more likely scenario is simply that they didn't.

    And again... it's fine for us to speculate in casual discussion about what might have happened. But I think it's irresponsible for an author to present a piece of speculation in a book as though it is a fact, as Badman (apparently) does.
     
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  23. gkmacca

    gkmacca Forum Resident


    I don't think Clapton really thought that through. If it had been a concert for Paul, organised by Paul's buddies, and George had been brought in to play, say, a Wings song, or a solo song, what's the betting George wouldn't have known it in rehearsals? The only difference would probably have been the fact that George wouldn't have been at all embarrassed or apologetic about it and no 'humble pie' would have been consumed.
     
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  24. Hardy Melville

    Hardy Melville Forum Resident

    Location:
    New York
    Yeah. I take Clapton's comment to mean Paul did not know how to sing the song at first. Words as well as the notes. Which is not the same thing as saying he didn't listen to it before.
     
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  25. Fivebyfive

    Fivebyfive Forum Resident

    Location:
    East coast, US
    On the other hand, Paul has admitted multiple times that he has to go back and listen to HIS OWN SONGS because he often has forgotten how they go.
     
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