Rogue Pharoah Integrated no longer pleasing.

Hmmm....Glad you got it worked out. Curious to hear how it's doing in a few days.

 

excellent. how are your speakers placed in the room relative to your listening position? do you listen from a centered sweet spot? if you have your setup done right, you should be able to hear the expanse of the projected sound stage that is an appeal of tubes systems (even if only in the preamp). sound should fill your listening wall in all directions. swapping to all solid state usually collapses that quite a bit and the main reason i love tube amps so much.
just a little insight- it sounds as if you may not have heard the benefits of tubes to appreciate what they can offer.

 

A bit surprised to see this post, as the TAS has lavished all kinds of praises on the class D hybrid amps by Rogue ...

 

The Rogue hybrids are the only experience I have with tube amps. I admit that I don't have a vast range of experience with high end amps. My Yamaha has been my reference since I began my 2 channel listening.

The Pharoah does have a much expanded soundstage compared to the Yamaha and better dynamics too. It's mostly just the bass performance at low volumes that I feel is lacking in the Pharoah. The bass somewhat improves when listening to records vs digital, but I listen to digital about 50% of the time.

My room is 25' x 15' x 8' (L,W,H).

Rear of speakers are 2' from the wall, 3' from the sides, Speakers to my listening sofa approximately create an 8' equilateral triangle. I always listen from the center "sweet spot."

Room setup shouldn't be the issue because nothing was moved when I swapped amps.

 

I have never owned a tube amp before though I have preamp and CD player that are tube based ...

 

I've owned tons of different gear including big/expensive names and the Pharoah is my favorite by far.

 

Don't be too locked into that as a proviso - maybe some speaker adjustments can bring up the bass at the low levels you like to listen at.

 

So you obviously believe in the class D - tube hybrid design approach. I have noticed some new amp with the class A/D design out there. My main amp is still my Conrad Johnson MF2500A, a SS amp. I am searching for an integrated for my study/computer room, though I would like to try out a tube amp but also want to have a tape loop so I can still enjoy my open-reels and cassettes. Unfortunately, most modern preamps/integrated's no longer provide a tape loop. While I can do without an onboard DAC since I can always get an outboard DAC, I do not want to lose the flexibility of a ready-made tape loop on my preamp or integrated ...

 

http://www.lindos.co.uk/cgi-bin/FlexiData.cgi?SOURCE=Articles&VIEW=full&id=17

Hope this helps,

Robert Martellaro

 

I avoided Class D amps due to the less than favorable comments from others. Also, I own Maggies and Magnepan themselves caution against Class D, recommending A/B instead, preferably something that doubles output into 4 ohms.

I've learned that Class D works quite well, but it's all in how it's implemented. The Pharoah doesn't have a switching power supply, it's an oversized regulated linear power supply augmented with a large choke.

I figured I'd roll the dice on a mint used one (paid $2300 with NOS Mullard tubes) because I'd been very impressed by the Rogue amps I'd heard in the past. I'm super glad I did. Maybe Class D sounds bad from other manufacturers. Maybe Rogue just got it right. In any event, it sounds absolutely wonderful.

I recommended one to a friend who lives out of state and trusts my judgement. He found a mint preowned with 2 pairs of vintage RCA tubes and paid $2150. He loves his too. Preowned these are the bargains of the decade.

The phono stage is killer as is the headphone amp. The headphone amp is a bit noisy, but you don't hear it when the music starts.

It has a fixed output for a tape deck, as well as a processor loop. It does not have a tape loop per se, but you could use the processor loop if you had to have off the tape monitoring.

The worst thing I can say is that the factory supplied JJ tubes aren't great, but they are easily upgraded- and you only need 2.

 

Class D amps have been around for at least a decade and B&O provides many of the class D amp modules to other OEM's. I suppose the bad rep the class D amps got were all the earlier-generation class D.

I am taking my time to research. Perhaps there are some integrated's out there that will serve my need. I have owned only a Kenwood integrated over the years and that lasted only two or three years before I completely switched over to separates in the early 80's ...

 

Robert,

When I switched amps, the difference in bass was night and day at the same volumes, even higher volumes (80+ db).

Even though I wish the Pharoah produced bass similar to my Yamaha, I could probably live happily with it if I didn't know what was missing. It really is an impressive amp and I still recommend an audition to anyone in the market for an amp in that price range.

My situation might simply be a mismatch of components.

Coopmv,

I don't have a lot of experience with various home stereo amps, but I do with automotive amps. I never came across an automotive Class D amp that I really liked, even though I wanted to like them for their efficiency.

I will say that the only class D trait that I perceive in the Pharoah that I also perceived in every auto Class D amp is a forwardness to the midrange, especially vocals. It doesn't bother me in the Pharoah, but it was often too pronounced in other class D designs. Of course, this is just my opinion. YMMV.

 

Something is not quite right. Do you have the original tubes? Just a thought.
I have deom'ed the Pharaoh multiple times at (2) local dealers. It had the most bass out of any amp in either store- by far! In fact that is why I decided on other amps- it was too bass heavy. The Yamahas are absolutely neutral souding, and the Parasound Halo is slightly warm- call it smokey / hazy sounding but in a good way. Your situation is perplexing.

 

Avanti1960,

When I first had the Pharoah in my system, (after a Sphinx) I didn't notice the lack of bass so much. I chalked it up to the fact that my new listening room is much larger than the room at my old place where I used the Yamaha.

But then I hooked up the Yamaha and the bass sounded just as it did at my old place, full and deep, even at lower volumes. The only difference in setup was that the pair of cables I use with the Pharoah has spades on the ends, while the Yamaha couldn't accept my spades, so used identical cables but with banana plugs. Everything was identical aside from the amps.

I do use vibrapod cones underneath the Pharoah's feet and I can actually feel less resonance with my hand on the chassis vs not using cones. I wouldn't think it would affect the sound much, if anything improve the sound.

The Pharoah's bass does come into balance (to my ears) once the volume surpasses approximately 65 to 70 db.

Unfortunately, I often listen at volumes aound 55 db.

I'm currently using NOS Brimar CV4003 tubes. I did try swapping to the original JJ tubes, but the bass response is about identical, the Brimars having a slightly warmer midrange.

I'm in a bit of a quandary, because I somewhat doubt the Halo will have the transparency and soundstage of the Pharoah, which is what I really enjoy about that amp. On the other hand, I typically prefer neutral sounding components, which is how the halo is usually described. My speakers could use a bit of warmth considering their current sound.

I'm not real experienced at describing a component's sound, but I feel the Pharoah
is short on the type of bass that I can only describe as tight, kicking bass, what I've been told is typically in the 50 to 120 hz range.

My hope is that the Halo will exhibit bass similarly to my Yamaha since they're both class AB.

 

A-S500 - Integrated Amplifiers - Hi-Fi Components - Audio & Visual - Products - Yamaha United States »

The spec sheet says the AS-500 doesn't have tone control bypass, aka "Pure Direct". It's likely that the loudness, bass, and treble controls, even when set to flat, leave the unit with a somewhat uneven frequency response. If it does have Pure Direct, turn it on, level match, and reevaluate.

Hope this helps,

Robert Martellaro

 

Sounds like you like the Yammie. Move up the chain, they only get better. I have a friend with an AS-301, nice sounding amp. Not nearly as nice sounding as my Yamaha AS-1100! Rogue is nice, but I believe Yamaha is more overlooked because it doesn't have quite the 'cachet' on the forums.

 

Robert,

The Yamaha does have what's called "Pure Direct" which is Yamaha's tone bypass, also listed under "Features" on that page.

I never listen with the tone controls engaged, or the loudness compensation.

I used to think the Yamaha is very neutral, but now I'm questioning whether that was only my perception due to lack of experience with other integrateds.

Maybe the Yamahas embellish the bass to some degree...or maybe the Pharoah was "voiced" at higher volumes than I typically listen.

ThorensSme,

I considered moving up the Yamaha chain, but I question the Phono input on the Yamahas (the AS500s is pretty boring).

I also like the idea of a high quality integrated DAC. Allegedly the Halo has a nice one. If I'm disappointed with the Halo, the AS1100 will likely be my next audition. As for looks, the Yamaha is tops in my opinion, just a great vintage style all around.

The Halo will get here in a couple days and I plan to spend most of the weekend breaking it in. I'll let you all know the results.

 

I had the Rogue Medusa for a couple of years and discovered that it was very sensitive to what it sat on. Changing the footers under it changed the tonal balance in a more dramatic way than cables ever did.

Perhaps you could move your cones so they touch the bottom of the chassis, instead of the Pharaoh's feet. This would allow them to interface with the amp in a more direct manner.

 

I agree that the Yamaha AS series has nice bass with a high dampening factor. When I first moved to my Yamaha AS-801 the first thing I noticed was an improvement in the bass. Not louder per se but tighter and punchier in a good way. Clear bass. I wonder if you actually need to upgrade from the Yamaha, you seem to really enjoy it. It's a great neutral sound. Not to mention it saves you thousands over the other amps you are discussing. I too have perused the Rogue Audio line and am curious about the Chronus Magnum, but I'm pretty happy with the Yammie sound and haven't pulled the trigger on anything yet.

 

According to various manufacturers their equipment is always 'neutral and flat' but we know better. I have a Yamaha amp and it doesn't sound like my Onkyo or NAD M3 or my Pharaoh. Yamaha is 'lush' sounding as compared to the other integrated amps I listed.

I've run the Pharaoh with Klipsch RF5's, Infinity Kappa 600s and now with Revel Ultima Studios and never thought it was bright or bass shy. I find the Pharaoh to be articulate. Here's a snap of the bass from the Revels w/o sub and the bass is also very articulate as well as plentiful.

 

Nice, I also considered the Halo integrated, it looks like a sweet machine. In the end, the Yamaha was more what I wanted, and like you said the aesthetics are more up my alley. Let us know how it goes! The phono stage in my as-1100 is very good. From my experience with phono pres (Graham Slee gram amp 2 and reflex, the Lounge Audio Phono pre, various vintage phono stages) you would have to spend $1k plus to better the AS-1100 stage. I love it.

 

Lush is a good word for the Yamaha description.
I recently grabbed a used Yamaha RX V2090 for dirt cheap. I was using my Emotive UPA 200 amp with it, using the Yamaha as a pre. Recently I removed it. The difference was quite noticeable. Of course i'm using equipment not in the same league as these featured here, but found it interesting all the same

 

Sometimes the sound difference is based on the mood you are in, the changes in the environment of your room etc....

 

I am willing to bet the Pharaoh is out of spec somehow. Do you have a rogue dealer near you? Maybe you could bring it in and compare the sound to a display model- or send it to rogue for inspection. The bass just wouldn't quit when I listened to them- on a huge variety of speakers from KEF LS50s, R700, and several Harbeth models and in different room sizes.

 

Sorry to hear about aural fatigue from rouge audio. I currently own a cronus magnum kt-120 output tubed and rolled the preamp tube with a 1956 jan 12au7 airforce radio tube and it kicked it all up a notch, the jj's are good , but the preamp needs a roll to match your electronics/speakers in most cases. Im perplexed at how it went for you, i owned a yamaha as 2100 and in direct side by side comparison the rogue just delivered the music , the yamaha had a tube sweet top end, very nice indeed top end , but after long sessions i kept coming back to the conclusion that the midrange had a aural seem , it was just not matching that creamy tubelike top end it was audibly sub par to it, the bass was fine tho. Not so with the cronus, it was bottom to top cut from the same audio cloth so to speak.So i sold the yammy. Unless theres a problem in your unit itself , id bet its your speakers not matching up to the pharoah , that amp has a damping factor of 1000! It should be gripping the bass cones like a bulldog on a steak, not as you described. I wish you had described the front end of your system, cd or lp, i know the cronus has a horrible phono section and headphone too, outside of the audio circuits, so a external phono preamp is a must for it, but the pharoah is supposed to have a kick ass phono preamp and headphone as well inside the audio circuit. I wish you the best on getting what you want at low listening levels.