SACD Players Under $2000 With Best Redbook Sound

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by DennisF, Mar 28, 2017.

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  1. bgiliberti

    bgiliberti Will You Be My Neighbor?

    Location:
    USA
    Any $500 player is going to sound GREAT with $10K speakers. Get real, folks
     
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  2. Bill Mac

    Bill Mac Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    I would have to agree with that.
     
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  3. F1nut

    F1nut Forum Resident

    Location:
    The Mars Hotel
    Bill, you missed the sarcasm in bgiliberti's comment.
     
  4. bgiliberti

    bgiliberti Will You Be My Neighbor?

    Location:
    USA
    Not sarcasm -- Truth.
    That's why stores demo their $200 CD players on $20,000 systems.
     
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  5. Bill Mac

    Bill Mac Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    F1nut, I didn't think it was sarcasm at all. I agree that a $500 player will sound great with $10k speakers. It certainly won't be the best player one could choose but will still sound great :).
     
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  6. Diamond Dog

    Diamond Dog Cautionary Example

    If you have no meaningful frame of reference, a $500 player will likely sound "GREAT" to you in a system with $10K speakers. And if those $10K speakers are worth a damn, put a $10K digital front end in front of them and they should reveal what a pathetic mess the $500 player is in comparison. And any store I've been in that's supposedly demo'ing $200.00 players ( yeah, they'll be sitting you down in a demo room and getting you a coffee and letting you bask in the splendour of those babies all day long... " Please, sir...take your time. We want to make sure you leave here with the right $200.00 POS disposable player because WE CARE A LOT !!! ) probably couldn't even put together a $ 20000.00 dollar system to use to flog them if they tried.

    No wonder digital takes such a hammering here from the vinyl tribe. They agonize over cartridges and set-ups and all the minutiae of their hobby and then they rub up against digital-based systems thrown together by guys who think they've acheived the SOTA for $500 new in the box. And it sounds monkey-butt ugly and the vinyl guys laugh and laugh and laugh....

    As you said : "Get real, folks." Jeez Louise...

    D.D.
     
  7. bgiliberti

    bgiliberti Will You Be My Neighbor?

    Location:
    USA
    Truth.
     
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  8. F1nut

    F1nut Forum Resident

    Location:
    The Mars Hotel
    Oops, I stand editor corrected on the sarcasm.

    On the other, have you actually had that sort of demo? If so, please tell me where because I want to avoid that business like the plague.
     
  9. Metralla

    Metralla Joined Jan 13, 2002

    Location:
    San Jose, CA
    No owner of a $20,000 system would use a $200 CD player. And that is the truth.
     
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  10. bgiliberti

    bgiliberti Will You Be My Neighbor?

    Location:
    USA
    Yes, the guy wanted to demonstrate a reasonably decent $300-$400 Onkyo single disc player on a Marantz Reference monoblock system with $9000 speakers. It sounded amazing, but when I insisted that he hook it up to a modest NAD system more like what I owned at the time, it still sounded good, but nothing like what it did on the Reference system. It was a big box store with an audiophile specialty room. But, I think they all do it to some extent, and in a way it's valid -- in all fairness, it was the actual CD player I was auditioning , best foot forward, so to speak.
     
  11. bgiliberti

    bgiliberti Will You Be My Neighbor?

    Location:
    USA
    I agree, but I was using that only as a thought experiment, to make a different point.
     
    Last edited: Apr 2, 2017
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  12. Richard Austen

    Richard Austen Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hong Kong
    Well Audio Note is still selling essentially the same technology today that they did then. When you can command $10k to $200K+ for a Redbook CD player that has no oversampling (upsampling), no error correction, no jitter reduction, no noise shaping, no digital or analog filters and an 18bit chip you are doing some things differently. Whether you will necessarily like what they do better or not is another matter but it measures differently and it sounds different and because of that - if you end up liking it - other digital will likely sound pretty bad in comparison - whether the machine is $20k or not.

    Then again Esoteric and the Linn are chump change compared to Audio Note's flagship CD player at £192,000 http://www.audionote.co.uk/articles/Audionote_CDT6-Dac_5_complete.pdf
     
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  13. bgiliberti

    bgiliberti Will You Be My Neighbor?

    Location:
    USA
    Sounds a bit like Conrad Johnson. Perhaps the biggest difference is not the price or the technology, but that somebody with good taste and musical instincts actually listens to the stuff before it goes out the door.
     
  14. Richard Austen

    Richard Austen Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hong Kong
    As for source I don't know about that - I auditioned Eva Cassidy on well regarded $20k loudspeakers and a computer audio as source through a DAC and I asked them to shut it off. I then played the exact same album on $800 speakers with about $100k in front end and it moved me and sounded flat out terrific - I bought the speakers.

    I would not say this is the rule of course but it does make you wonder about the usual speakers first worry about everything else later. It's why I always look at the sensitivity and general ease of drive as a consideration. I like Harbeth for example but I always recommend Audio Note speakers over them because A) they're in the same sonic ballpark but B) the AN's are ten (TEN) times easier to drive, C) are just as nicely finished if not better, and D) come in 20+ finish option and E) and cost half. But it leaves the option open to the consumer to choose amplifiers based on sound quality and not how many watts at 3 ohms it will put out.

    SS amplifiers sound far more alike than they sound different which is why no one passes blind level matched tests with them. CD player manufacturers source most of the internal parts. You have to ignore the hype around a lot of stuff and see what is going on inside. You take two CD players around $1k they are both limited to the parts quality they can purchase and still make a profit. They likely source the same or similar transport mechanism - they may both use the exact same DAC chip and pedestrian connectors, output stage and wiring. No wonder in blind tests people can't tell them apart - when the internals are pretty much the same! You see the same parts in $300 machines as you see in $1,000 machines too. Some companies simply rebadge stuff. My NAD 533 turntable for example is simply a Rega P2. They basically painted it that ugly NAD colour and put the NAD logo on the front. Same Rega 250 arm too.

    How about the Theta Data Universal - Theta purchased a bunch of Philips LD machines for $299. Theta put the entire machine (case and everything) into their own cheap sheet metal box) They added a $25 SPDIF connector to the back - and charged 10+ times the money. Stereophile and others raved giving it product of the year and class A blah blah. But gee Philips did 99.9% of the work - they designed it all it was their machine! But nope let's charge people 10 times and put a fancy audiophile approved NAME on the front of the box and sucker everyone.

    Theta

    I have no issue with high prices but at least give me something for what I pay. Quality parts, an original design - both preferably and of course excellent sound.

    Perhaps the best way for many of you to hear the difference going up the price spectrum of sources is to listen to several CD players from the same company. Listen to an entry level model and then listen to their top model. But make sure the top model is using better parts (as it's not always the case). For example, listen to a CD player that uses a common transport mechanism - then perhaps their top model uses a Philips Pro 2 mechanism and probably better/different internal capacitors or wiring or a different output design. It's easy for me with Audio Note because I can listen to one and then hear a model 2-3 levels up and you see the parts change (even though the overall design is essentially the same) so you can hear the parts changes. Most brands only make a couple of models so it is much more difficult. But Lampizator does this too and it appears Esoteric offers enough players to compare as well.

    Speakers always have the "most" difference...but not necessarily the "most important" differences. My Line Magnetic DAC for example has both a tube and SS output - the Chip is the same - both sections have their own dedicated transformer and at the push of a button you can hear the DAC in Tube or SS. It's a staggering difference. So if they were two separate machines and you heard them both and they were the same price it would be difficult not to conclude that a DAC makes a difference. In this case the machine uses a SABRE 9016 ESS chip and the SS section is virtually unlistenable compared to the tube side. Even though the tube is carrying an additive kind of buffer - the result is unmistakable. Even if you prefer the SS more is of no consequence as we're talking "does the source make much of a sonic difference?" Yes and it can be large indeed. The tube section makes me listen all day - the SS makes me shut it off. My $20k+ speakers can't save the SS section. Neither can my big fat lush sounding 219IA SET. So the source can be make or break from listening to my music to instead turning it off.
     
  15. Richard Austen

    Richard Austen Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hong Kong
    The Audio Note owner, Peter Qvortrup, is a music first vinyl first fellow who has been in this business 40 years. I don't think you will find anyone more knowledgeable on classic music or vinyl with his 20,000+ collection. Or on tubes. He's a bit mad scientist and his dealers get frustrated that he makes way too many products and can't keep up with the orders. And so while people wait 8 months for their turntable - he'll come out with some new amplifier and you'll be like great - so they put my turntable on the shelf while they went and built that new thing. He does things differently than everyone else. If you like the sound you will buy in - if not you won't but that is true of anything really. They will take the listening over the measured performance. Their CD players measure poorly and yet...
     
  16. bgiliberti

    bgiliberti Will You Be My Neighbor?

    Location:
    USA
    Richard, while I enjoy your posts very much (really), Given that the true "source" for much, if not, most of the music you listen to was recorded on SS consoles and decks (unless you only listen to pre 1970 recordings, which I admit is possible), I have to call BS on this whole line of argument.
     
  17. Richard Austen

    Richard Austen Forum Resident

    Location:
    Hong Kong
    Not sure how the source disc was recorded applies to the playback of the recordings. I listen to music from most all genres and all time periods from classical to rock to pop to trance, dance, country, metal, jazz, new age, international and even a little rap.
     
  18. F1nut

    F1nut Forum Resident

    Location:
    The Mars Hotel
    Interesting, thanks.
     
  19. Classicrock

    Classicrock Senior Member

    Location:
    South West, UK.
    Audio Note sound great in an AN system. Frankly I don't know how their CD players sound in another set up. I guess their designs are based on less is more and they get fairly good reviews. An unusual approach to CD design that hasn't been widely adopted, maybe for good reason. I did say players can be judged on a case for case basis and not price. As pointed out you may be paying for badge with digital but at under $1000 I would not expect to get a CD player that stands up to extensive listening in A $20K system. If people think it sounds great it is likely because they haven't heard something better.

    However in terms of improved musical presentation CD players do not leap ahead in SQ as much as a Vinyl front end when large retail prices are concerned. Indeed I am sceptical of the additional costs in producing a better electrical device rather than something involving precision mechanical engineering. Since Philips stopped making them I don't think there are really any truly high quality CD transports available to most manufacturers. TEAC keep there VRDS mechanisms in house while a few others have bespoke designs but not of bomb proof construction. So even if you pay a lot for a CD transport/player you likely get an adapted computer DVD drive mechanism.

    As far as amps and CD are concerned there is no need to add valve colouration to get great sound. Bland grainy solid state amplifiers are down to bad design. The best can be as sweet as valves without the curtailed mushy bass reproduction typical of most. Amplifiers do not sound the same or similar in spite of claims from a certain speaker manufacturer popular on this forum. Valves actually have more practical use in recording and instrument amplification to create a certain sound (through distortion).
     
  20. bgiliberti

    bgiliberti Will You Be My Neighbor?

    Location:
    USA
    As the pundits say of Donald Trump, the person who shall not be named should be taken seriously, but not literally. :) Upgrading my amp made a huge difference with my Har***h 30s.
     
  21. Ephi82

    Ephi82 Still have two ears working

    Location:
    S FL
    I've read this thread with great interest.

    When I have read threads on speakers, the differences in SQ are almost always very detailed and specific. Varying attributes of the highs, kids, lows. Soundstage and imaging, transparency, naturalistic, hoped etc, etc, etc.

    In reading about CD players I hear arguments being made that "nothing under $1,000 has good SQ" or "you'll never know how good it gets until you get that $10k player," and that great story of repackaging and re branding a $300 Phillips unit and getting over $1000 for it.

    The thing is that there is no detail why the SQ is better, let alone how it's different! Where is the "language" that describes what the SQ of a $10k player sounds like. As far as I can see, there is precious little of it and I am afraid that impressions of SQ are overly dependent on expectations driven by price.

    Here is my theory: most CD players have good DACs in them. Can you spend more on DACs and get better SQ? Yes, but boy you better have good ears!

    Now, let's talk about analog out put stages, those little thingies that push the analog signal from your DAC to your amplifier. No one talks about them, but they can have a significant impact on the sound of your digital front end.

    This post is already long enough, so I will hold off describing why I think this. I am curious as to whether others agree with me?
     
  22. bgiliberti

    bgiliberti Will You Be My Neighbor?

    Location:
    USA
    Go to Absolute Sound, Stereophile, or virtually any audiophile publication if you want to read endless purple prose about how "miraculously different" these fancy players sound. No need to repeat here. As for your point about the analog circuitry, I agree, but in all fairness, that point has been made many times be me and many others here. It's well recognized by the market as well, which is why OPPO has had no trouble selling the 105D for twice the price of the 103D, even though the only significant difference is the 105D's vastly upgraded analog output.
     
  23. Bill Mac

    Bill Mac Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    I agree with your post in that with speakers one can readily hear the differences when speaker changes (upgrades?) are made. With disc players the SQ differences are subtle at best (in my experiences) and hard to pin down IMO.
     
  24. Ephi82

    Ephi82 Still have two ears working

    Location:
    S FL
    I think this thread made my point. You say that you and many others have recognized that the analog output stage separates the good from great players, but over 5 pages of opinions there has been little to no discussion about it.

    In any case, I learned how analog output stages make a huge difference through music recording systems. A few years ago I purchased a 24 channel digital recording system that was in wide use during the transition from 24 track tape and the early digital audio workstations.

    When I started using it I couldn't believe how much better it sounded than the recordings made on my friends very capable and expensive DAW. The sound was deeper, fuller and more massive. My friend was amazed too

    I called the company for some tech support, and it happened that the owner of the company took the call. He addressed my tech issue, and I asked him why his system sounded so good. His answer: very good DACs but more important, outstanding analog out circuit design and component quality.
     
  25. thegage

    thegage Forum Currency Nerd

    Not sure what you're reading, but there are plenty of reviews of higher priced players that detail very specifically the improvements over lower priced ones.

    In my own experience, hook a $300 player and a $6,000 player up to a decent mid-level system and any differences will be very difficult to discern. You'll hear a clean, clear sound with decent transient response and full frequency reproduction from bass to treble. Do the test with a more revealing system and you'll begin to see what higher price often (but not always) gets you. For example: better definition of instruments in a clearly defined acoustic space separate from other instruments; on piano recordings, better identification of what the left hand is doing vs. the right hand; on reed instruments, more obvious subtle shadings; and perhaps undefinable, more emotional connection to the music. Whether those differences and others matter enough to you to spend the extra money is a personal choice, but that doesn't mean the differences don't exist.

    John K.
     
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