Rush - new 2015 vinyl and hi-res reissues thread. (Part 2)

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Ken_McAlinden, Apr 27, 2015.

  1. Plan9

    Plan9 Mastering Engineer

    Location:
    Toulouse, France
    For the 2016 remaster by Sean Magee, he used the analog safety tape for MP (that is, the original digital mixdown copied to analog tape), so transfering that in Hi-Res makes sense (at least to me and others it does) and is not *technically* a straight digital upsample.
     
    Last edited: Jun 6, 2017
  2. Fractured

    Fractured Forum Resident

    It seems to me that that analog tape would likely be the worst option, since it would have been made using a 1980 D/A converter, from a 16/48 digital source. Converting that digital master with today's converters should be a significant step up, although the damage was really done in the mixdown.

    I'm not saying it sounds awful — there's nothing that I can personally point to and say, "this is caused by the digital tape step" — but, it being such a significant album, I can't help but wonder how much better it could sound. (Maybe someone who has heard the surround version — which _was_ mixed from a hi-res transfer of the analog source tapes — could offer some insight into what, if anything, is missing in stereo. But maybe that's off-topic for this thread.)
     
  3. Plan9

    Plan9 Mastering Engineer

    Location:
    Toulouse, France
    Early digital is what it is, but the people using it all came from an all-analog background, and although they were less aware than us today of its limitations, they still knew how they wanted stuff to sound in the end. Sometimes a digital downmix was copied to analog tape for that final analog binding and natural compression. And that tape became the "true" master, not the previous digital step. That's the case for several Rush albums. It is unclear to me if that's the case wth MP, I never checked if most masterings stayed in sync with the same digital clone or not. (BTW, MP has a 44.1kHz cut-off.)
    Anyway, mastering from an analog safety is a valid choice if you can make it sound good or *subjectively* better than the naked digital master. At least it'll sound different. You can master a digital mix in analog or you master an analog mix in digital, if none of either methods' limitations get in the way of the sound quality, what counts is the final result. If you want to compare methods, I believe the previous 2011 "Sector" remaster of MP used the digital downmix... and we know how that turned out... (i.e.: not better than the old Robert Ludwig mastering)

    I have heard the 5.1 surround version mixed from the analog multis. The mixing methods and styles are so different it's difficult to say which aspects of sound quality come from the new AD transfer and which come from the mixing, but the recording sounds more smoothly extended and has that analog flow you would expect... It is also perhaps less "snappy" but of course it lacks all the treatments applied originally to the first mix. I'll have to listen again to the 5.1 mix.
     
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  4. DiabloG

    DiabloG City Pop, Rock, and anything 80s til I die

    Location:
    United States
    I gave the 24/48 download of Power Windows a listen after not playing it for a while, and I certainly heard how the watermarking affected it. As another poster pointed out, the intro to Mystic Rhythms has the most noticeable damage. This also might be a result of the watermarking, but the high-end seemed kinda "wishy-washy" to me. I prefer the US Atomic for this one now, and I still need to see if Caress of Steel also has noticeable artifacts. I'm probably going to get the rest of the reissues on vinyl and make my own needledrops, even though they'd only be in 24/48! So far, I have the vinyl reissues for Fly By Night, Feedback, and Snakes & Arrows.
     
    JediJoker likes this.
  5. Agreed--the remaster of the original mix that was available for a relatively short time on HD Tracks is my preferred way to listen.
     
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  6. JediJoker

    JediJoker Audio Engineer/Enthusiast

    Location:
    Portland, OR, USA
    It's still available from 7digital in the U.S.
     
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  7. DiabloG

    DiabloG City Pop, Rock, and anything 80s til I die

    Location:
    United States
    Just wanted to give you guys an update on the Atlantic download codes since I bought Roll the Bones and Counterparts at Barnes and Noble today. The code for Counterparts worked like a charm and I'm currently downloading it, but it's not working at all for RTB. I sent an email to [email protected] a few minutes ago to see if they can send me a working download link. They gave me a link for Snakes & Arrows when my code for it wasn't working, so hopefully they'll do the same for RTB.
     
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  8. DiabloG

    DiabloG City Pop, Rock, and anything 80s til I die

    Location:
    United States
    Alright, wmg sent me a working link to get Roll the Bones. :cool:
     
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  9. JediJoker

    JediJoker Audio Engineer/Enthusiast

    Location:
    Portland, OR, USA
    Well, that's good news for anyone who has purchased or will purchase new copies of the vinyl releases and has not yet downloaded the files. I wonder if the Magee Atlantic masters will ever see a separate digital release?
     
  10. latheofheaven

    latheofheaven My Pants are FULLY Analog...

    sigh... sorry to weep and moan (just a little...) but it would REALLY REALLY be nice if in the future, perhaps, if they could PLEASE keep the vinyl remasters thread completely separate from the HD trax thread... Please...

    It is really tough (I know, I'm a wussy...) wading through scores and scores of pages completely about digital trax, in order to find any information about the vinyl remasters. I swear, but ONLY on the SH forums have I seen such bloody PASSION for 'talking' about digital formats! MAN...

    So, to the Powers That Be... if I could please humbly suggest that perhaps these kinds of threads about remasters could please be kept separate, because it is honestly REALLY difficult to find the parts about vinyl which are the only ones I care about.

    Thanks!

    (Whining done... [​IMG] )
     
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  11. latheofheaven

    latheofheaven My Pants are FULLY Analog...

    Ah, that would explain why I felt that Caress of Steel sounded so digital to me. Immediately on playing the new vinyl I didn't like the sound at all.

    Most interesting... Glad you mentioned that in your comparison. That explains a LOT! [​IMG]
     
  12. latheofheaven

    latheofheaven My Pants are FULLY Analog...

    Very nice job :)

    I also believe that I have the same club pressing. I'm surprised at how good it sounds. There is not NEARLY as much difference in this album as I heard with Caress of Steel. The early pressing I think has a tad more of an open airiness to it, maybe a BIT more of a spread soundstage, but the new remaster to me is actually pretty dang close and sounds very good.

    Thanks again mate! :D
     
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  13. latheofheaven

    latheofheaven My Pants are FULLY Analog...

    I also really like AFTK as one of my favourites after 2112. I also have an early U.S. club pressing (similar to the 2112 the fellow above in this thread did in his comparison with the remaster) I really like how mine sounds. It was apparently mastered at JAMF, so I'm GUESSING you have the good mastering that everyone likes here, and I SUPPOSE that RCA just got it 'right' this time because to me it sounds really good. I'm not surprised that you are disappointed in the remaster's sound compared to your early Canadian pressing (likely also pressed at JAMF)
     
  14. latheofheaven

    latheofheaven My Pants are FULLY Analog...

    Yep, sadly that seems to be the case. Although, you are one of the VERY VERY few apparently noticing this. Could be more so for 2112 though... Apparently just about EVERYONE here is saying that Hemispheres is definitely better, but...

    Caress of Steel was pretty bad compared to my early U.S. GK pressing. Like you say about 2112, absolutely NO comparison.
     
  15. latheofheaven

    latheofheaven My Pants are FULLY Analog...

    Uh oh... looks like somebody just might need a little correction...

    [​IMG]
     
  16. latheofheaven

    latheofheaven My Pants are FULLY Analog...

    :laughup: [​IMG] [​IMG] [​IMG]
     
  17. latheofheaven

    latheofheaven My Pants are FULLY Analog...

    Exact same impression of my remaster copy of Caress of Steel, almost to the word... :)

    Maybe we both just got odd, poor pressings that DON'T represent how most of them sound. The way bloody EVERYONE talks here, they all seem just fine with it...
     
  18. Nycademon

    Nycademon Forum Resident

    Well, if "YouTube rocks harder", it sounds like you have a simple solution. Sell your vinyl, and listen to the YouTube stream. And just out of curiosity, which YouTube stream? I could be wrong, but I suspect there are more than one.

    I dunno, given the circumstances, some of this seems awfully nit-picky. I'm old enough to remember the original pressing I had, the awful "Rush Remasters" CD and, at least as of a couple months ago, the cost of used Rush vinyl. There are albums where I'm willing to go on a quest for the "Holy Grail" release, but "A Farewll to Kings" isn't one of them. I'm quite happy with the new vinyl. I'd be willing to bet I'll even like it better than the YouTube stream.
     
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  19. latheofheaven

    latheofheaven My Pants are FULLY Analog...

    That is totally understandable, and as many here say, these remasters are especially great for those either who don't have older ones and don't want to screw around with finding originals / older pressings, and also those whose copies are so worn that these are excellent replacements. I'm quite sure that's true...

    Seriously though, after hearing MANY here one after the other, and many who have much nicer systems and are much more knowledgable than I am, and have the original pressings on top of that, and they almost ALL categorically said that Caress of Steel is a definite improvement over the original, then, honestly, the ONLY possible explanation for that (other than my rapidly waning sanity...) is that there absolutely MUST be something specifically wrong with the particular album that I happened to get. Like the fellow that I quoted above said about AFTK I think it was. Almost to a person here, EVERYONE raved about THAT remaster the most, I think. So, again, in HIS case, he too must have received a particular record where there was just something wrong with it. Coincidentally, his description about the sound is almost EXACTLY how I would describe my copy of Caress of Steel.

    That honestly must be the case...

    If so, then I will not try to trade it to anyone, etc., since there almost certainly has to be something wrong with it. Too bad too... If I had frigg'n received the same nice lovely copy that everyone else seems to have bought, then I wouldn't have had to go on this crack-fueled craze looking for and bloody already BUYING Near Mint copies of the U.S. original, a German original, and a Dutch original.... GRRRrrr....! :rant:
     
  20. latheofheaven

    latheofheaven My Pants are FULLY Analog...

    sigh... Okay, it's official now...

    I am a bonehead...

    ... a sorry-@ss loser...

    ... a clueless idiot...

    Well, you get the picture. I'm afraid that I am in a position (of my own witless choosing) where I now hafta wretchedly grovel, crawl, rip my garments apart, throw ashes on my head, and otherwise recant my previous opinion.

    GEEZ, talk about pulling a boner. And NOT in a good way...

    Okay, so today I am over at my listening room and I'm taking more time than usual to do some cleaning and rearranging, etc. So, normally I like clean and detail my car or something while I play a couple of sides to warm up my system (although I use an inverter circuit to run a continuous signal through my phono inputs and my electronics are on 24/7, I still need to warm up my cartridge and tonearm cable) So, today, since I was taking so much time to clean, etc. I ended up playing about 6 or 7 sides of albums until I was done screwing around before I settled down to do some serious listening.

    So, this time I had warmed up my system quite a bit longer than usual, probably about 2 or 3 hours instead of the usual 1 hour or so. So, I though, okay, now is a good time FINALLY to listen to the NM first pressings that I ordered for Caress of Steel. One a 1st German pressing, one a 1st Dutch pressing. So, I throw on the German one first. I listen to Bastille Day and I'm thinking, 'Great, once again yet ANOTHER sucky-@ss pressing from Europe' So, I put on my early U.S. pressing which I had rigorously super-cleaned the other day with Audio Intelligent 15 & laboratory grade purified water, but I hadn't listened to it yet. And, of course, as usual, I'm thinking that my old one is better, yet another waste. So, I then throw on the Dutch pressing. Now that one for some odd reason strikes me a little differently. I'm thinking that although something is definitely different / missing there appears to be good separation, detail, and tonal response. But, the damn drums and low end just don't seem to be as present as my old U.S. pressing.

    Now, my system is bi-amped. It used to be tri-amped, but the larger amp I had running the low end gave out quite a while back (I was running the mids / high-mids & tweeters with a dual-mono setup with a separate amp running each side for total isolation and separation. So, now I simply have one amp running the mids/highs and one amp running the woofers. So, normally with most pressings, I generally have it set so that the lows run about 10 higher on the 'dial' for a good balance. And, of course, this is the way I listened to my old pressing. Occasionally I have to adjust the highs or the lows using just the amps (absolutely NEVER any tone controls or other electronics in the signal chain) So, I though, hmmm, maybe I should bump up the amp for the lows a notch and see how it sounds...

    DOHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!! [​IMG]

    Yes, you guessed it... THAT was indeed the BONEHEAD moment...

    Suddenly the drums and lows sounded pretty dang good! So, in my great wisdom I thought, 'Hey, maybe I should put the German pressing back on with the same settings' Pretty sharp, huh...[​IMG] So, I did. And, it DID sound better, but still not quite there. So, I bumped up the lower amp one more notch, and... YEP... that did it!

    So then, with my newfound brilliance coursing through me I thought, 'Hey, maybe I should put on the new remaster with the increased low end and see how it sounds...'

    Well, you've likely pretty much guessed it... SUDDENLY, oh my... it sounded pretty damn good! WOW... can you imagine that...?

    Yep...

    Bonehead...

    Dumb@ss...

    Loser...

    Trust me, there aren't NEARLY enough disparaging words to describe how completely and deservedly stupid I'm feeling right about now. I guess my one weak, slimy, poor-@ss excuse MIGHT be that I've only been doing really serious listening about the last month or so after a really REALLY long time of laying off. So, I guess I'm kind of learning how to do it all over again... Pretty dang sad, if you ask me... [​IMG]

    So, whatever penance you guys think is appropriate... you want me to put a dead cat in my pants for week... fine... You want me to wear a garter belt around my head for a week... fine... WhatEVER it is, it won't be enough.

    Anyway, despite the total decimation of any reputation, dignity, or minute credibility I might have had, the good news is that...

    YES! The new Rush: Caress of Steel remaster DOES indeed sound very, very good (gee, like just about, uh... EVERYBODY said here) now that I've FINALLY removed my head from my @ss, where it has been tightly lodged for quite some time, and actually remembered what the HELL I'm doing...

    Just thought I should come here and correct my, uh, 'little' misstep...

    [​IMG]
     
  21. pablorkcz

    pablorkcz ⚡️⚡️⚡️⚡️

    Good thing it wasn't "rapidly waning sanity".;)
     
  22. latheofheaven

    latheofheaven My Pants are FULLY Analog...

    Yeah, yeah... Good thing... [​IMG]
     
  23. latheofheaven

    latheofheaven My Pants are FULLY Analog...

    THIS!!! ^
     
  24. latheofheaven

    latheofheaven My Pants are FULLY Analog...

    SHOWOFF! :agree:
     
  25. latheofheaven

    latheofheaven My Pants are FULLY Analog...

    I know this has been a while ago, but sounds like the same thing, but the reverse, of what happened to me with Caress of Steel. I had almost the EXACT same reaction of abject horror, just as you described it. But as ad180 mentioned above, when EVERYONE else totally loves a specific album and thinks it sounds great, it is VERY likely that something on the disappointed guy's end is the culprit. That was my case with CoS. Sounded bloody awful! I couldn't state enough times on the threads how bad it was. THEN.. I literally stumbled on the fact that with this particular album and with my system, I had to bump up the low end of my bi-amped system. What gave me a frigg'n CLUE, finally, was playing 1st pressings that I just got from Germany and Holland. I immediately noticed the same thing, but not quite as bad. And, I'm thinking, 'Crap, I guess I will just have to be happy with my good sounding, but very noisy early U.S. pressing.' BUT... then it dawned on me that the Dutch pressing actually sounded pretty detailed, but just no life in the drums (low end) So, as soon as I bumped up the low end amp 1 notch for the Dutch and 2 notches for the German, LO & BEHOLD! They then sounded pretty dang good :) So, pulling my head even further out of my @ss I thought, 'Hey, maybe I should try to play the new CoS remaster with these settings...'

    EXACTLY...

    Still I also received a beautiful MINT genuine 1st U.S. pressing from a nice guy on eBay and THAT one REALLY sounds amazing blowing away the others! But, the point being is that until I adjusted the amps properly, the new remaster, particularly, sounded absolutely HORRIBLE. But, after bumping up the low end amp 1 notch, it honestly sounded a HELL of a lot better! :D
     

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