Ronnie James Dio in Black Sabbath

Agreed...wanted to love it, but wasn't quite there.

 

Super creepy. Honor the man and let him rest in peace.

 

Ozzy Osbourne's 80s act seemed to owe rather a lot to Alice Cooper who'd been doing a more imaginative version of the same thing ten years earlier.

 

1/2 of it is really good...plus the tracks on The Dio Years were outstanding.

 

You sound like you were around back at that time, as was I, so when two "eye witnesses" disagree, best to go to the tape, so to speak. For the USA, Heaven and Hell was certified gold in January 1981, platinum not until 1986, so for our purposes here, discussing the pre-Bark time frame, it was a gold album. Mob Rules wasn't certified gold until late 1986, so during that time it was an uncertified LP. To this day, Live Evil has yet to go gold.

In contrast, Madman went platinum in May of 1982 and Blizzard went platinum in August 1982, while Speak of the Devil was certified gold in January 1983.

I'll take your word for what was happening in the UK, but in the USA at least, the commercial separation between Ozzy and the Dio-fronted Sabbath was clear.

 

Yup, there was a Dio/Sab camp and a Ozzy/Rhoads camp and Ozzy did win this war. I remember Sabbath having a evil/satanic vibe with the "there is a devil in the Mob Rules album cover" and something like "kill Ozzy" is written on there. So, Sabbath had a biker like vibe. Ozzy was just starting to get over, "Crazy Train" and "Flying High Again" were really getting popular, and then Randy died. . . It was an exciting time.

 

Heaven and Hell and to a slightly lesser extent The Mob Rules are great, classic heavy metal albums. Obviously not as revolutionary as the Ozzy albums but similar in terms of quality to the classic first six. I sometimes wish they had went witb the Heaven and Hell name from the get-go, then they'd have gotten credit for being a great band without always being unfairly compared to the prior version of the band.

 

If you went to see Sabbath in 1981/1982 and then Ozzy a month later, it'd likely be at the same venue. That was really my point. In fact, if anything, I'm not sure Ozzy was overall playing quite as big a venues in as many cities, but I'd have to look at tour lists which I'm not inclined to do at the moment.

Obviously, we're talking about two tremendously successful acts and whether Ozzy saw Blizzard and Diary be "certified" platinum earlier than H&H and MR, the difference between the acts in the US wasn't what it became by the mid 80's. By the late 80's, the difference here in the US was huge.

But my bigger point was that in all the accounts I've ever read of the split between Dio and the Sabs, I've never once seen Ozzy's solo career mentioned as somehow influential on Ronnie. TBH, I doubt very much that Ronnie could have cared less about what Ozzy was doing with his career. The issues were those of power and more so listening to what other people were saying was being said. All of them seemed to later agree it was a mistake for that to have happened. That's why we got Dehumanizer.

 

Oh Wow. Totally forgot about the "filming" reference by Dio during H&H in Live Evil (Its been a long time). Glad to know something was shot and probably sitting in a warehouse (or garage) somewhere. Could be a nice future project release. Thanks Tim!

 

Interesting early 80s interview with RJD, where he gives O.O. both barrels.

 

A band called Doc Holiday opened when I saw them. One of my classmates would give them the finger and yell how much they sucked. I Remember the bass player smiling and ignoring the insults. Tough position to be in for most bands (unless your name is Van Halen).

 

I liked The Outlaws so it was fine for me. I was only 16 so any rock show was good with me. Did I find a southern rock band opening for Sabbath strange? Yes, but I didn't get hung up on it.

More pertinent to the thread topic: I caught Sabbath and Ozzy in 82 and Sabbath blew Ozzy out of the water. A big part of that was Ozzy's voice was shot from the first song. Rhoads was phenomenal but he didn't save what was a lackluster show. Sabbath was incredible; beyond words how great they were.

 

I had Live Evil and really liked it RJD did give them a shot in the arm and I liked the non-Ozzy era stuff. As with any replacement singer it is hard to like the same band and songs with a different voice. RJD was an incredible singer.

 

I agree the commercial gap between Sabbath and Ozzy grew even larger as the 80s progressed, but the records show that it was pretty big in 1982-1983 as well. Sabbath's Dio albums just didn't sell as well, didn't have the commercial impact that Ozzy's Randy Rhoads albums did.

As for the split between Dio and Sabbath, yes, I'm just speculating about the impact Ozzy's solo career had, I can't point to old press clippings or quotes, so i can't argue with anyone who wants to dismiss it out of hand. Nevertheless, RJD wasn't just a musician, he was savvy and ambitious about the business side of the music business as well. He had to see what Ozzy was doing, not just because of the Sabbath connection, but because everyone saw what Ozzy was doing, it was just that high-profile.

It just seems to beggar belief to me that while Dio was arguing with Iommi about the direction of Sabbath, an argument that he could never win given the power structure of the band and his role as the new kid in it, that he didn't see how Ozzy had left Sabbath and ignited a high-profile solo gig, a gig in which he not only was selling more records, but as the named artist on the albums and record contract, was raking in most of the money from the LP sales and touring, rather than getting paid as a hired hand, or at best getting 1/4 share of the loot if Sabbath had made him an equal partner, and Ozzy also had complete control over musical direction and personnel issues.

Dio was, IMO, way too smart and desirous of leadership/control to miss that.

 

I hope you realize that certifications are requested by the record label, and they really aren't in any way, shape or form a real-time indicator of how much has been sold. They kinda do it when they get around to it, because they have to pay for it. Sometimes, they want to do it early....sometimes they don't bother. You can't go by that RIAA database as anything other than a list of gold and platinum records for the US market only.

 

I realize that. In this case, as active artists at the time on major labels, there's every reason to believe that the albums in question by Ozzy and Sabbath were certified in a timely manner. Even if they weren't, it doesn't matter because, e.g., Mob Rules has never been certified above Gold and Heaven and Hell above platinum even though many Sabbath certifications have been made over the years, whereas Madman and Blizzard were certified both 34 years ago. There just isn't any doubt that Madman and Blizzard significantly out-sold the Dio-Sabbath studio albums back then, and same with their live records.

 

Yeah, I just don't think that this is what happened. We have no evidence of it, but we do have plenty of evidence about what I've cited.

I followed the press at the time, and Dio was livid. There was no way he wanted that band to end. He went off on Tony and Geezer like you cannot believe.

IMO, you're way overestimating the commercial difference from 1980-1982. Like we've agreed, Ozzy started to pull away in the US, but both acts were absolutely doing well. Sabbath with Dio could probably sell out three nights at London Hammersmith in five minutes during this period. They were playing 10,000-20,0o0 seat arenas in the US. They were on the radio. They were on Rockline. They were in the press all the time with "Ozzy vs. Dio" debate. You could not go a week without them being in Circus or Creem or Hit Parader, etc. Same with Ozzy and even more so, but not that much more so.

Did they want to do even better? Probably. And they may well have, but we'll never know. Just keep in mind that around this time most fans liked both acts. And I think it fair to say that Sabbath had maybe a slightly better reputation for being about music first and foremost. Everything I know about Ronnie suggests music was always the most important. I really don't think he wanted to leave that band, go off and try to create without Tony, produce and all of that. And I certainly don't think he viewed Ozzy's commercial success as some point of aspiration. I think he thought Ozzy during this period was a liar and a clown.

Ronnie also took a major dip until "Rainbow In The Dark" hit its stride on MTV. He went from playing Madison Square Garden with Sabbath to playing for a maybe a thousand people a night until his career took hold. Fortunately, it hit quickly, but unlike Ozzy, the US didn't remain the massive market for him like other parts of the world. I remember when Dio rejoined Sabbath in '92 they were playing like two nights to 50,000 people a night or something in Rio De Janeiro. But in the US they'd hit NYC and do like The Beacon Theatre. Ozzyless Sabbath probably could have stayed big in the US had Dio stayed, but after the parade of lead singers and lack of consistency, it just didn't happen.

 

I'm a huge fan of the early 80s Dio era... but am not really into Ozzy-era stuff other than for historical purposes... though I probably do enjoy Technical Ecstasy and Never Say Die! more than most Ozzy-Sabbath fans.

To me... Heaven and Hell and Mob Rules are companion pieces... (similar two the way the first to Dio albums function)... they're nearly carbon copies in terms of track sequencing... the style of each song as the album progresses, etc. And I feel the albums are nearly identical in quality... Mob Rules perhaps missing out on an iconic centerpiece epic similar to its predecessor's title track.

I think Mob Rules gets lower ratings largely because Heaven and Hell was a groundbreaking album while Mob Rules can seem derivative as the band largely took the exact same approach to their follow-up LP. I don't believe Mob Rules represented any diminishment in songwriting or performance, however.

I will admit I've never listened to Live Evil, but I don't care about live albums. I'm sure it probably would've been weird to hear Dio sing Ozzy classics.

As for their 90s reunion... I have no interest in that record... a dull affair.

And as heartening it was to see these guys reunite yet again in the 2000s... The Devil You Know is extremely boring... every song is at the same sludgy pace... no "Neon Knights" to be found.

 

Black Sabbath is one of my favorite bands. I like all ERAS in the history of B.S. I'm a fan of the band and I do not put much effort in putting myself to compare their different stages in a negative way. This versus the other. I just enjoy those albums in depth
With Dio the band made a musical turn and I find it incredible what they did in such a short time and with so many problems as interruptions for this particular conformation.
I think that Heaven & Hell and Mob Rules are excellent and are currently classics in the genre. I remember that in those years I liked Black Sabbath much more with Dio than Ozzy in his solo career (I only really like the first two Ozzy albums and the live album "Tribute")
Tony Iommi in these albums reaches a different level and his guitar solos become more dramatic. On several occasions, Iommi comments on how to play and compose with Ronnie, taking him to another level as a guitarist (and that is notable in Heaven & Hell, Mob Rules and Deshumanizer)

Deshumanizer is bloody heavy, quite intense. It's the least I like about all of Sabbath's albums with Dio.
Live Evil is a good album but "Live At The Hammersmith" is certainly excellent! It's probably the definitive live album by Black Sabbath-Dio. Special mention for Live At The Radio City Music Hall, (both in video and audio)

When they made the tour as Heaven & Hell I was very excited and I think they demonstrated how solid was all the music they had recorded over these years. An incredible repertoire that did not need to prove to anyone how well they could work without the songs of the Ozzy Osbourne Era.

And I really like "The Devil You Know"

 

One huge component that I think we should all acknowledge in Ozzy's initial success is what I call the "Eddie Van Halen factor".
EVH flipped the heavy metal community on it's head with his flashy and exciting virtuoso style.
I think that greatly opened ears to Randy Rhoads virtuosity and neoclassical metal style if you will.
Which I believe created and fueled even more excitement over Ozzy's new band.
Ozzy had a secret weapon....RR.
I think the greater metal community was ripe for these modern rock guitarists and what they brought to the table for better or for worse.
It could be that Ozzy had an advantage over Sabbath.....incredible as that is.
Not that anyone is a better metal guitarist than Tony....but new & different was certainly exciting.
Also someone pointed out the incredible press Ozzy was getting with his insane antics...that certainly didn't hurt sales.

 

There's no question in my mind that much of Ozzy's success was heavily predicated on the playing and magnetism of Randy Rhoads. Ozzy had caught lightning in a bottle with Rhoads. Sadly, it didn't last very long and his output post Randy bears that out all too well.

 

I worship at the altar of Rhoads but great playing is nothing without songs and I'm in the camp that thinks Bob Daisley always deserves a ton of the credit for the quality of Blizzard and Diary.

 

Btw...just to put things in perspective, and add another bit of context here....
Randy Rhoads sadly passed away in March of 1982. That would definitely affect sales in a massive way, and help explain why Blizzard went Platinum after Diary.

 

Good point but I think it was a combination of Daisley's songwriting and Rhoads' playing. Daisley wrote for Ozzy on BatM and that album is a major step down from the previous two with Randy. 3rd album slump? Maybe, but I think it goes beyond that. A vital piece was missing.

 

Yeah I'd never take anything away from Randy and I assume he was an important part of that song writing too.

There's something really spacey about Bark at the Moon and it has a keyboard heavy vibe that makes me think of it as an extension of Technical Ecstasy and Never Say Die. I think you could put a cool, droning keyboard heavy playlist together from those three records.