Beatles Please Please Me Album Stereo Mix- MFSL Version

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by stereoguy, Jul 5, 2017.

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  1. EdogawaRampo

    EdogawaRampo Senior Member

    From an eBay descrip:

    "These were cut from old the school Parlophone tube masters & are highly sought after by collectors. Apparently this one is the one people want because of the info in the dead wax, please see the photo, label close ups etc... Second press SHZE 117-A-2 SHZE 117-B-2, These pressings (matrix suffix with "2") were sourced from copies of the original UK stereo masters without EQ or compression. The UK Parlophone presings also used copies of the masters, but from EQ'd compressed LP masters made there, making this the closest thing to the master that there is."
     
  2. Andreas

    Andreas Senior Member

    Location:
    Frankfurt, Germany
    If that's true, the 2009 stereo CD should sound closer to the "Die Beatles" LP than to the original UK LPs.
     
  3. Stan94

    Stan94 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Paris, France
    Why is that? I think Die Beatles and PPM come from the same tape source but treated to a very different mastering.
     
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  4. Andreas

    Andreas Senior Member

    Location:
    Frankfurt, Germany
    Just one post above, it was stated that the UK LPs were made from eq'd tapes and not from the masters. Maybe that was wrong information?
     
  5. slane

    slane Forum Resident

    Location:
    Merrie England
    Agreed. There was only one stereo master.

    I think people get misled by the 'EQ'd and compressed copy' designation of the master that is documented somewhere. It's simply another name for a 'mix' (in 1963 EMI parlance), which is a 'copy' of the session tape balanced and treated with EQ and compression.

    The raw twin-track session tapes wouldn't be suitable for use as a 'master', not without someone applying some fade-outs on certain songs (and the fades on Die Beatles are identical to the UK mixes, instead of having any slight variations that you would expect had they been redone from the session tapes).
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2017
  6. Bingo Bongo

    Bingo Bongo Music gives me Eargasms

    Location:
    Ottawa, Canada
    I'be been saying that since the 2014 mono box came out. Only a matter of time before they release a AAA stereo box, then who's gonna want to buy the old boxes? Will they hold their value then??
     
  7. Andreas

    Andreas Senior Member

    Location:
    Frankfurt, Germany
    Then that stereo master was the source for (a) "Die Beatles", and (b) the 2009 CD, and the two should sound very much alike, just as I stated above. But which they don't in reality.
     
  8. slane

    slane Forum Resident

    Location:
    Merrie England
    Because Odeon mastered it quite differently - the EQ is different and the left channel is reduced by around 3dB, leaving the vocal channel more upfront.
     
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  9. stereoguy

    stereoguy Its Gotta Be True Stereo! Thread Starter

    Location:
    NYC

    >>>>>Well, I sure as heck wouldnt call them "Sound Effects", but the 2009s would have the same MIX. The point is that the MFSL EQ was tweaked to emphasize the lower mid range, so the guitars are really audible. Some people dont like that, but I happen to.
     
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  10. stereoguy

    stereoguy Its Gotta Be True Stereo! Thread Starter

    Location:
    NYC

    Andreas:
    "Die Beatles" was mastered from a DIFFERENT tape than the Regular LP was. Heres what happened:
    EMI mixed the Stereo version of the PPM Lp with their normal processing. They then made a FLAT transfer of this tape, and sent it to EMI Germany, and this tape was used to cut "Die Beatles"
    Meanwhile, back at EMI Abbey Road, it was decided that the master tape needed a bit more processing. So, they took the master tape, and made a copy with additional compression, limiting and possibly some light EQ changes. THIS tape became the "Master of all Masters", and was used for every commercial release of the album, except for "Die Beatles".....the tape used for 'Die Beatles" does not have this additional processing.

    Dig?
     
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  11. stereoguy

    stereoguy Its Gotta Be True Stereo! Thread Starter

    Location:
    NYC
    Its too bad that EMI doesnt have ALL the tracks from the original Twin Track Session tape of the PPM album. They have some but not all.
    I would LOVE for them to go back to the raw Twin Tracks and remaster the album from THEM, the absolute first generation tape. Yes, there would be some differences from the released album, but the Sonics would be SO clean and should sound incredible. Remember, even the 2009 Cd is a couple of generations down.

    Listen to some of the CDs Ron Furmanek did right from the multracks and the astounding difference in sound quality. A few that stick out are The Crickets, The Fantastic Baggies and The Hollies.
     
  12. Andreas

    Andreas Senior Member

    Location:
    Frankfurt, Germany
    Do we know which of the tapes was used for the 2009 CD?
     
  13. slane

    slane Forum Resident

    Location:
    Merrie England
    As I said, I'm sure the 'EQ'd and compressed copy' is just another name for the MIX. And Germany got that same (only, in fact) MIX but just mastered it differently.

    i.e. there was no 'intermediate' stage. It was twin-track session tape straight to the stereo mix (a.k.a 'EQ'd and compressed copy'). No 'uncompressed' stereo mix.

    And it should also be noted that 9 of the tracks were mixed to stereo and (collapsed) mono simultaneously.

    EQ and compression on those 9 songs seems to be the same in mono and stereo, suggesting that those changes were made during the mix, not put 'on top of' the stereo mix.
     
    Last edited: Aug 6, 2017
  14. Tommyboy

    Tommyboy Senior Member

    Location:
    New York
    He did a great just with the Hollies material.
     
  15. Tommyboy

    Tommyboy Senior Member

    Location:
    New York
    I think I responded to one of your comments similar to this in the past. I think that ship has sailed. It would be great if they did a AAA stereo box or issued all analog stereos individually. Universal would have to pull/recall the 2012 pressings, which are still relatively new. From a business perspective it's not cost effective. Perhaps, a limited edition box could be issued.
     
  16. stereoguy

    stereoguy Its Gotta Be True Stereo! Thread Starter

    Location:
    NYC

    >>>>>>I dont agree, I kind of see where youre going, but you seem to have it backward. If you are saying that there is only one Stereo MIX done off the raw Twin Track, well maybe so. But , then the only explanation is that Germany got a copy of that, and EMI added the extra limiting, compression and (maybe) EQ to the Tape used for the vinyl cutting master. But NOT (as you said) Germany getting a copy of the tape with the extra compression and limiting and they just mastered it differently. I dont think thats credible...they could not just "take out" the extra limiting and compression once it was there.
    Do you have the correct HorZu LP>? I have 2 of them and there is a real, tangible difference. The HorZu is open with lots of dynamic range compared to the standard issue. The German copy HAD to have been made from a tape that did not have it, plain and simple.
     
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  17. Derek Slazenger

    Derek Slazenger Specs, rugs & rock n roll

    How much is the HorZu and where do I get one if I win the lottery this week?
     
  18. slane

    slane Forum Resident

    Location:
    Merrie England
    One sticking point is that 9 songs:

    I Saw Her Standing There
    Anna
    Chains
    Boys
    Ask Me Why
    Do You Want To Know A Secret
    A Taste Of Honey
    There's A Place
    Twist And Shout

    received stereo mixes, with the delta mono facility providing simultaneous mono mixes (which became the mono masters for those songs). Comparing the two different prints of the same mix (one in wide stereo, the other the same mix collapsed to mono) doesn't seem to indicate any real difference in EQ or compression levels on these 9 songs. The mono versions sound very much like the stereo mixes do when folded. Which is what you would expect with this method.

    So if the stereo master had been subjected to extra work after the fact, the exact same work must have also done on the delta mono mixes - which is unlikely, IMO.

    The only other place you could find an 'uncompressed' stereo mix would be the raw twin-track session tapes. But using those would require fade-outs to be applied to the songs that needed them. Yet the fade-outs seem to be identical to the final 'mixed' versions described above. There should be at least some minor differences.

    For some reason, the German master has the instruments channel reduced in volume (and some of the vocal echo is also on that reduced channel). Apart from that and some audibly noticeable EQ differences, the waveforms don't look different in regards to compression levels, and the fades are identical to the 'regular' versions.
     
  19. EdogawaRampo

    EdogawaRampo Senior Member

    A comment from the host:

    Post #3 here:
    Adventures in Beatles Vinyl Collecting: Comments Welcome

    "Here's the deal with "Die Beatles," German Hor Zu, SHZE 117, as far as I understand it:

    The pressing I have sounds amazing. I hope the one you get will too. The MAIN REASON it sounds amazing, and much better than the British first press, is that the studio copy tape that was sent to Germany back in the 1960's was copied flat from the real-deal master tape and NOT the "Equalized and Compressed" British LP master that was used to cut the Parlophone versions.

    So, the German tape copy is actually the SAME tape generation as the British cutting master, but without the constricting EQ and extra compression that mars the British version. Make sense?"
     
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  20. fogalu

    fogalu There is only one Beethoven

    Location:
    Killarney, Ireland
    "Please Please Me" does benefit from a little subwoofer jolt. I first bought this album back in 1964 and I always thought it could do with a little help from the bass.
    I have a very, very modest setup (and I'm not being modest about it) and I never had decent bass until I bought a subwoofer back in November of last year. PPM was the first album I tested it on and I find I'm playing it a lot more than usual.
    I turn the subwoofer setting back down a bit for "With the Beatles".
    I turn it off for the Sgt Pepper remix. :D
    (By the way, I'm talking about CDs here - if that is permissible.)
     
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  21. stereoguy

    stereoguy Its Gotta Be True Stereo! Thread Starter

    Location:
    NYC

    >>>>>>Again, it doesnt matter if they dont "look different" in a waveform...they ARE different. Please see post #144 above.

    Why is this so hard for you to accept?
     
  22. Rfreeman

    Rfreeman Senior Member

    Location:
    Lawrenceville, NJ
    I paid $25 for one at Princeton Record Exchange in 2016 when they had just gotten in a big Beatles collection, and they are typically knowledgeable about the value of rare albums so I doubt that was a real outlier price wise.

    I am no expert on album pricing, but I was real happy paying that price for a particular pressing I had desired for so long.

    Not expert enough to tell you if it was "mint" but I have noted no real defects either on the cover or the vinyl.
     
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  23. Digital-G

    Digital-G Senior Member

    Location:
    Dayton, OH
    I bought a German copy of Please Please Me around 1976 or so. Apple label. I couldn't believe a) how clean the pressing sounded and b) how wonderful the music sounded - dynamic and with depth. At the time I pulled out my Capitol copy of The Early Beatles and compared. There was no comparison. Pretty sure that was the last time I ever spun The Early Beatles album.
     
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  24. Rfreeman

    Rfreeman Senior Member

    Location:
    Lawrenceville, NJ
    Nicer cover though
     
  25. Bill

    Bill Senior Member

    Location:
    Eastern Shore
    I specially ordered the MFSL box when it was announced, followed by orgasmic reviews, and bought it for $400, selling my mint Blue Box to pay for it, something that I've never regretted. I love listening to it while reading comments here trashing the sound quality, in favor of the latest reissues hyped by Apple and Fremer, amplified by the echo chamber here. I am disgraced by my apparent lack of refined audio sophistication (sniff!), but I like it fine. Might be those dead silent Japanese pressings on virgin, translucent vinyl, compared to those Rainbo pressings that resulted in many here calling for mobilization of the National Guard. Crazy hobby, ain't it?
     
    Last edited: Aug 7, 2017
    Dan The Man1, iloveguitars and Onrd like this.
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