Are the loudness wars over?*

Gotta light?

This is the water and this is the well...

Cheers,
Paul

P.S. Loved your post!

 

I think this is a big stumbling block in the quest to change things...to modern ears, it's the music with dynamics that sounds funny.

 

Then I have a question. If we take two files, one very compressed and one not, and peak-level them both to 0db, are you saying they would be equally loud?

 

You are right it will not restore dynamic range, but what it will do is make a compressed file sound dead and insipid compared to a dynamic one on a platform where everything is set to 13 Lufs.

Posters should try it. Take a dynamic song and a compressed song, normalise (or adjust loudness) to 13 Lufs, and listen to what they sound like side by side.

 

My point, exactly.

 

Well, if album sales are any idication, Loudness lost the war a long time ago.

 

RMS values should work fine to level match two different tracks, right?

 

Lets not forget about EQ in mastering. You would two tracks equally as loud but if one has more top end it shall should louder aswel.

 

I think of it more as a loudness takeover then I do a war. There are a few small little freedom fighter groups out there but for the most part there really isn't much opposition.

 

LOUD is still the favorite standard.

 

The thing to know about today's modern digital normalization schemes on these streaming platforms and in playback software is that it's not just peak normalization -- which is what you're describing -- but loudness normalization based on some algorithm that either looks ahead at some RMS value or uses some algorithm designed around human perceptions of loudness (and even I think in some cases Fletcher-Munson curve equalization based on playback level). I'm not really sure what all the different offerings and systems are out there because I'm not much of digital music guy, but I'm sure there are folks on this forum who are up on the different schemes in use.

 

I'm not expert at what the latest and greatest loudness correction is for streaming. What you are describing though is a type of compression. To the extent they do that, it would sound more and more like FM radio. I agree though that once you compress it doesn't matter what the dynamic range of the recording is, since everything will be at the same range and peak. But then why would I ever listen to streaming? This is why I dumped Sirius XM - it plain sounded bad.

 

And never will be... Unfortunately...

 

I don't think it's compression. It doesn't alter the relationship between peaks and troughs or squash peaks above a threshold. It just adjusts playback signal level based on some calculation of average signal level across a track not based on peak levels of the track. Also, there may be some equalization on some of the schemes like a loudness button on an old receiver, I'm not clear on that. But neither of those things are compression. Also, with these streaming services normalization I think is an option, you don't need to turn it on.

 

I would be very interested in being able to download a hi-res non-limited master of my favorite artists new material. That's all. And I would love it if I could get a remaster of E.L.O. that sounds as good as a vinyl rip.

The record companies really are missing a part of their market.

What is really annoying is to listen to a song on an oldies station that is compressed all to hell and sounds nothing like the original recording intended.

 

That is SUCH a good point. I've never seen anyone draw this corollary of the so-called loudness wars into focus like that. Everyone knows that dynamic range in movies and TV shows can be extremely 'audiophile' in the sense that radio/cd 'brickwalling' isn't.
Perhaps it's musicians who make tracks with sync to TV shows and films uppermost as their business effort who work in the 'best zone' for fullness of expression.
From one type of airplay to another.

 

This is a great thread. Today I finally realized why members here complain about compression and limiting. I was listening to the Beatles 1+ cd and I realized the vocals are mixed far too loud. I always have to adjust the volume as my ears start hurting. Listening to the Beatles Mono Masters cd is a real pleasure. Soft mix, I can turn up the volume and everything sounds even. The softer the better because I can control the listening experience by just turning up the volume a little and it's all good. Cheers

 

Brick wall peak limiting is the worst thing that has ever happened to music reproduction.

 

I didn't know about it until I joined the forum. I thought that is how the music was originally recorded. Now I know better.

 

And the artist hires a producer and engineers, why? They should stay the hell away from what they don't know, but arrogantly complain they do. Engineers have had their arms twisted if they want to work in "the current cost cutting industry" for the majors and these spoiled baby artists if they're involved that is. They know what they're doing but are held hostage in order to feed their families. You're confusing analog compression of the 1960's with digital, both recording and mastering applied, compression of the 90's forward. They are not, and sound nothing alike, the same thing. The two box sets you mention sound like crap when turned up loud on a decent system even compared to the 1987 CD releases and we know they're not super fantastic, with exceptions of course.

It would be nice to see exactly what your listening on to arrive at your conclusions. Perhaps a public profile as opposed to hiding?

 

How do you find music that isn't compressed to death? Only buy cds manufactured in the 80's or 90's?

 

Pretty much, aside from more recent reissues from companies that explicitly reject "modern" mastering techniques (most of the time), such as Audio Fidelity, Analogue Productions, MOFI, ORG, Intervention, etc. Occasionally a mainstream release will use more traditional mastering methods, but those cases are rare, and usually discussed on threads here.

Even CDs from the '90s may not be safe--they usually are until about '94 or so, then it's hit-or-miss until about '97 or so, after which they are mostly brickwalled to death.

 

It's a case by case basis.