History of CBS Records 30th Street Studio NYC (many pictures)

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by DMortensen, Oct 21, 2014.

  1. silvertone

    silvertone Member

    That would work for me, either day. I’ll check with a few friends to see if they may be interested as well.

    Keep us posted Dan.
     
  2. DMortensen

    DMortensen Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Seattle, WA USA
    Great! It looks like this is going to come together one week from today, on Sunday, October 15.

    I don't have the name of the place yet, but it seems to be Fletcher's place (don't know if that's his first or last name, but it's the only name I've ever heard him referred to by) in Suffern NY. I'll get more details when I talk to him soon, but it has a big TV and separate space where we can hang out. He's a recording guy, I think, and seems to have a big reputation. I've met him once or twice at Ampex list/Pro-Audio List dinners, and we've talked on forums several times before this, and he's consistently been most helpful and supportive. He seems to think this is a neat project, and suggested that I write a note to the Gearslutz forum moderator to see if they would mind if I put something up there. They are touchy for some reason about talking about other forums there, which I don't quite understand because we are all interested in the same thing and at different times we do to different sources. But it's their thing and I respect their opinions.

    Best for me would be something like 1:30pm start, so get there at 1 to see the walk-in video, which I've just decided is called "River of Names".

    The presentation itself will last about an hour ten or fifteen, I hope, with time for questions to fill out the other 15 or 20 minutes, I hope. The presentation last week went nearly two hours, with at least half an hour of audience participation. I think I'm going to cut the Pre-Studio part to about a minute, and have it available at the end in case there's time.

    I'll have extra material beyond that in case there's time at the Convention, but at this thing we can go for several hours so if you're interested we can see that, too. Our Friends of 30th Street meetings have always gone 4 or 5 hours, with everybody involved in talking about things they are interested in, and not only about 30th St. The time does go by fast when you're having fun.

    I'd love to hear about your studio and that mixer you posted a picture of; you should bring some pictures on a USB stick or something and you can talk about it. It sounds like music playback at Fletcher's place is through the computer, so plan on that if you want us to listen to something.

    That last paragraph goes for anyone who comes.

    With all due respect to everyone, I'll be deciding when we've done something enough and somebody else should talk, so be advised of that. :) Needless to say, you can say something if we get bogged down.

    I hope you can come and that you can bring some friends. I was thinking that it would be nice to have a minimum of 6 people there, and that I wouldn't do it if there were less, but one time I did a Fo30St meeting in the apartment in NYC that I was staying in, and only 3 guys showed up (MMM, Chuck Granata, and George Schowerer), and we had a great time talking for about 3 hours, went to dinner and had a great time talking, and spent about an hour in the street in front of the parking garage talking. So I think I'd be fine with just you and Fletcher, but it is merrier if there's more.

    The map seems to show Suffern as being on the NY/NJ border, so I hope some members of the New Jersey contingent can attend.

    This is a no-host deal, of course. I'm not buying your drinks or dinners.... :faint: , and we should plan on ordering something to pay for the electricity and other stuff at least. I'll need to plan to get a train back to Manhattan, but I might eat dinner there if there's someone to talk to.

    I've enjoyed meeting members of this forum and look forward to meeting more.
     
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  3. DMortensen

    DMortensen Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Seattle, WA USA
    OK, just talked to Fletcher and found out the details. Here's the meeting announcement that I sent out to another forum which doesn't like to name other forums on its site, and so will not name here:

    History of CBS Records’ 30th Street Studio Presentation

    Sunday, October 15, 2017, 1:30pm — ?
    Plan B
    114 Orange Avenue
    Suffern, NY 10901
    http://www.planbsuffern.com

    Presented by Dan Mortensen at Fletcher’s (formerly of Mercenary Audio) Plan B Pub, as a dry run for presentation at the New York AES Convention on October 21 (see below)

    There was a wonderful yet somewhat inscrutable place called the 30th Street Studio at which dozens if not hundreds or even thousands of remarkable-sounding recordings were made for over 30 years. It was located in Manhattan NYC at 207 East 30th Street.

    It was described in various places as an abandoned Greek Orthodox church that Columbia turned into a recording studio which was recognized as so perfect-sounding immediately upon acquisition that the decree went out: Don't change anything in it, don't wash the floors or paint the walls or fix it up in any way. Leave it like it is!

    It was also described as a gargantuan space (100' x 100' x 100') that had perfect reverberation.

    We know for sure about the extraordinary-sounding recordings that came out of it and we still listen to today, but the particulars of its structure and spaces were lost to demolition, and as more questions are asked the details in the answers get fuzzier.

    Dan Mortensen, co-moderator of the AES’s Pacific Northwest Section’s 6 or 8 meetings looking into his career with Frank Laico, Columbia Records’ recording engineer for over 30 years (Frank's career there roughly coincided with the life of the studio), became more and more interested in those nagging details and has been pursuing research into it ever since his first meeting with Frank in December 2008.

    Dan has also founded a group to memorialize the studio called Friends of the 30th Street Studio (Fo30St), and has held four meetings in New York since 2012 in which people who worked there or are interested in its memory gather to discuss it and to see the fruits of Dan's and other people's research and share memories.

    The truth is that Frank and others who were there were remembering through nearly 50 years of memories without much physical evidence, and as entertaining and plausible as the memories were they were not fully accurate. The spirit was entirely correct but not the complexity of reality.

    Come join us and see and hear our current understanding after 9 years of research of what the studio was like over its 33 year life span and how it evolved in that time. There will be lots of pictures, and some but not a lot of music, as this is about the studio and not its product. The studio story is complicated enough, as you will see.

    This presentation is a dry run for a presentation at the next New York AES Convention, when Dan will present it on October 21 from 10:45am-12:15pm Room 1E08 (Archiving and Restoration track, AR04) in the Javits Center. Your input for improvement will be appreciated.

    We will have time in Suffern to talk about other audio subjects, too, so if you have some pictures of something interesting bring them and we’ll do our best to fit them into the time available.

    ============================

    Please be aware that I talk about this wonderful forum (SHF) in the presentation and how invaluable it's been in finding out what we know about the studio. I wish I could spend more time talking about you all, and again hope I get to talk with you in person.

    I'm still holding out hope for a Manhattan presentation while I'm there, but that hope dims as the days go by.
     
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  4. DMortensen

    DMortensen Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Seattle, WA USA
    PS He says his place is a four minute walk from the train station (NJT runs there, maybe others??), and two minutes from the bus station.
     
  5. silvertone

    silvertone Member

    Hey Dan,

    Hope you don’t mind but I just posted this information at the PRW forum as well.

    Hope to see you Sunday. It would be good to see Fletcher again and play catchup.

    Best,
    Larry
     
  6. DMortensen

    DMortensen Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Seattle, WA USA
    Hi Larry,

    Not only do I not mind, I welcome anything anyone can do to have people there!

    I did another dry run last night and got some good comments and have hopefully improved it again. It's a full hour and a half, so be prepared for that. My audience last night seemed riveted the whole time and wanted me to change it to make it longer (!), but I cut some things down and expanded some others so I think it will still be pretty close to the full hour and a half allotted time at the Convention. There appears to be nothing in the room afterward, though, so we should be able to hang out for questions and conversation even though I'm filling the whole time.

    When we get together Sunday we just have to be out of there by midnight (!!).

    We won't go anywhere near that long, I'd like to get back to the hotel at a reasonable hour. I probably will want to eat dinner at Fletcher's place, the food looks really good, and then leave after that.

    Thank you, I look forward to meeting you.
    Dan
     
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  7. DMortensen

    DMortensen Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Seattle, WA USA
    While we're at it, was I the only one who thought that the video of Gould's Goldberg Variations session at 30th St was made at THE LAST SESSION there, or is that a common impression that I'm spoiling with reality?
     
  8. DMortensen

    DMortensen Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Seattle, WA USA
    Just a reminder that TOMORROW, SUNDAY the 15th, I'll be in Suffern NY to show my presentation about the history of 30th St from start to finish. There will be a few things that have been in this thread, but there's a lot of new material that I'm not quite willing to show to the Internet yet, but would be happy for you to see.

    Since there's a non-zero chance that people's plans change and there will be nobody there other than me and Fletcher, be aware that if that occurs I will not be doing a recap of the event...

    However, Fletcher posted a picture of his place in his forum

    [​IMG]

    and it and the menu look pretty good to me, so I'm looking forward to being there even if it comes to that.

    If you are anywhere near Suffern NY and could make it there by 1:30pm without suffering too much, I'd like to meet you and not only share the life of the studio with you but hear what's going on with your audio pursuits. Larry, I hope you bring some pictures or are willing to talk about your activities. Your place sounds pretty interesting.
     
  9. tommy-thewho

    tommy-thewho Senior Member

    Location:
    detroit, mi
    You should record it and make a video of it.

    Best of luck.
     
  10. silvertone

    silvertone Member

    Hey Dan, I am heading down now and will probably get there between 12 and 1230 and plan to grab a bite before hand as I will have to leave shortly after the presentation is done as I have a rehearsal at 8 o’clock tonight here
     
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  11. silvertone

    silvertone Member

    See you shortly...
     
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  12. DMortensen

    DMortensen Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Seattle, WA USA
    Hi All,

    I'm significantly happy to report that we had a swell meeting today in Suffern, with about the best turnout that could be hoped for (except for missing those of you who weren't there). The presentation was enjoyed by all, and talking with them individually and as a group was even better. There was a huge amount of recording and technical expertise in the room, and they freely shared and kibitzed.

    The meeting kicked off just after 1:30pm, and we had to restart a couple times to not leave out the new arrivals, which was fine. There was in fact a Jet/Patriots game today in Meadowlands, starting at 1pm, so traffic in the Northeast Corridor was screwed up for hours.

    Despite that, we got through the program, although fascinating and welcome comments from attendees made precise timing impossible, but that was a minuscule price to pay to get to be part of that conversation.

    The last stragglers left at about 6:40pm, after enjoying Fletcher and Plan B's wonderful food and beverages for a notable amount of time.

    Present were Fletcher, Larry/Silvertone from this forum, Dominick Costanzo from Battery Studios, and Tom Fine from whatever his mastering studio is called (can't find it online right now), plus this author.

    [​IMG]

    From left: Larry/Silvertone, Tom Fine, Dan Mortensen, Fletcher, Dominick Costanzo
    Background: The beautiful Plan B Pub in Suffern, NY

    You may be tired of reading me saying "we had a blast" about these meetings, but that was exactly the case, again. As I said, there was a lot of recording and technical expertise in that collection of folks, and they already knew a LOT about the gear in the pictures I showed them, and were interested to see the history and details that I presented.

    I did record it, but between the fact that there was a significant amount of bleed from the football watching in the bar, and that I don't have rights to the music examples I played, that recording will never be released. Sorry; for at least a while, you're going to need to be there.

    Thanks to Fletcher and to all who attended. You all made my day.
     
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  13. silvertone

    silvertone Member

    Dan, thank you for a wonderful time and the fascinating presentation on 30th Street. You did an amazing job putting all this information together. I highly recommend that anybody who can attend the AES show should try and catch this presentation.

    Blast, is the word to describe this day!!! Talking about vintage gear and in particular Columbia’s gear with the likes of this group was one of the best experiences in my life. I thought I knew quite a bit but learned about quite a few things I never even knew. Between Tom and Dominick they really had the knowledge on the first Ampex machines down!

    Talk about gear geeks in the room! No way Dan could Time his presentation as each photo sparks a conversation. We were like kids in the candy store.

    Thank you Fletcher for the wonderful Plan B pub, I recommend anyone in the area check it out. Great vibe, great food. I was sad to hear Fletcher doesn’t do any recording at all anymore. He has a talent that is not being utilized, I hope that changes as the industry needs more guys like Fletcher back in it.

    Thanks for a great time Dan. Have a great showing at the AES.

    P.S. If you ever want to do that documentary of this just let me know. I have the resources in place if you can get permission on the content. I think Tom could help you out with that aspect.
     
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  14. silvertone

    silvertone Member

    Hey Dan can you email me at [email protected] I’d like to get copies of the photos from yesterday if at all possible.

    Thanks again for great time yesterday it really was a blast.
     
  15. DMortensen

    DMortensen Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Seattle, WA USA
    Today I got to spend most of the afternoon talking with a Ryan Speth, who does professional photo mastering (like audio mastering) in New York, and I brought this photo to his attention.

    Yesterday at our meeting we got to talking about the monitors in this picture with Monk and the console. Those present guessed they were Altec, but had no model or other info, although it does look like there's some kind of logo on the left two units. The far left one has it on the grill where it's easily visible but not quite readable, while the center one has it on the wood at the bottom, which is much less visible in the photo but still visible as a tiny triangle. There is nothing visible on the right unit.

    Ryan is an incredible Photoshop master, and has a ridiculously powerful computer since he uses PS constantly.

    I asked him to zoom in on the logos and this is what he came up with, after some impressive messing around. The first one is the grill logo and the second one is the logo on the wood:

    [​IMG][​IMG]

    None of the lettering looks anything like "Altec" to me, although the one on the wood looks exactly like an "A" with a circle of some sort above it.

    Edit: oh, and the grill one has nothing to the right of the centerline of the A, while the wood one seems to have tiny lettering left and right. To my eye. These pictures are taken with my camera, and look exactly like the video screen he was using. I don't think these are any less readable than the screen.

    Any ideas?
     
  16. DMortensen

    DMortensen Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Seattle, WA USA
    That "a" before "Ryan Speth" was left over from the first version which was "a professional photo masterer named..." which didn't get lost when the wording got less awkward.
     
  17. DMortensen

    DMortensen Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Seattle, WA USA
    The "Å" on the logo (how about that, got the keyboard command first time!) is the Angstrom symbol for wavelength.

    There is an Angstrom speaker company from Canada, but they seem to be more recent than 1962 and their logo is a little different.

    Can't find anything else relevant.
     
  18. DMortensen

    DMortensen Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Seattle, WA USA
    Just in case anyone reading this can be at the NY AES Convention with the ability to get into the Paper Sessions, my 30th St presentation will be tomorrow, Saturday, at 10:45am in Room 1E08.

    The one I'll give is about the sixth incarnation of this talk, with information unearthed as recently as two nights ago.

    FWIW I talk at what I hope is appropriate length about this forum and thread and my gratitude for everything that you all have done to help discover and tell the story of the studio. Many of you are clearly better at finding things than I am, and it would be the absolute best if you were there, too, to tell the story, but I'll do the best I can.

    It's a full hour and a half long, and the forty or so people who have seen the various incarnations of it so far all tell me they want to hear more about xxxx, when I've been trying to cut things to fit. Nobody has said they wanted to hear less, except my non-audio friends who wanted to hear more building history and not so much stuff about microphone and tape recorder model numbers and features.

    Thanks to you for your help in making this an interesting journey.
     
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  19. Wingman

    Wingman Bored of the Rings

    Location:
    Europe
    [​IMG]

    Dan...Looks like the old JBL logo upside down.
     
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  20. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Nice.

    Based on the angled grilles and the fact that the bases can be seen on top (speakers upside down), I'm going with the JBL C34:

    [​IMG]



    There was also a C40, but those were in a "lowboy" enclosure meant to be placed on its side. The base of the C34, seen on the top of the 30th Street Speakers (upside down), was not present on the C40.

    [​IMG]

    "A rear-loading horn which can be used in a corner or freestanding. Folded within moderate dimensions is a 6-foot exponentially tapered horn to bring you the lowest octave of music, accurately and smoothly. With the 001 two-way system installed the C34 makes an outstanding reproducer, widely used for professional monitoring applications. Available in Mahogany, Korina, Tawny Walnut, Oiled Walnut, and Ebony."

    Still digging. I haven't yet seen any with the logo on the frame itself, like the center speaker, but there's no question in my mind they are JBL speakers. Now, exactly how they were configured (see advert above) is unclear, and may never be known.

    [edit: it appears the "Harkness" moniker only applied to the C40]
     
    Last edited: Oct 20, 2017
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  21. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Some more JBL catalog images:

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    From what I can see, it's almost a certainty that the enclosures were of the JBL C34/"No. 34" variety. The exact drivers is another question.

    Different enclosures in place by the time of Company in 1970.
     
  22. DMortensen

    DMortensen Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Seattle, WA USA
    You guys are awesome! You beat me to the punch line, even.

    After that last posting on Tuesday, I sent it to Rick Chinn and he suggested the JBL logo and sent links to catalogs, and the mystery unwound from there, up to a point which you've now resolved.

    Here is what I have in my talk, which you are now going to see first:

    Crap, I can't get into my Flickr account on this travel computer now; it dropped my login, it was logged in. Luke, I'm sending you the composite pic, so please upload it when you get a chance. That pic shows the two logos side by side from the grilles, and the JBL logo upside down, with colors inverted, and the same size.

    I thought it was the C35 because I didn't recognize the C34 from that sideways catalog picture, but I think you got it because the first pic of the C34 you posted looks exactly right, including the base on the bottom that is on top in the Monk picture because the cabinets are upside down. That sideways picture still looks hinky to me, but I agree it is definitely the C34.

    You guys are wonderful!
     
  23. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    Here are those logos together:

    [​IMG]

    As far as the C35 goes, I initially thought that was a possibility, but the C35 was a reflex cabinet with the woofer in the middle, with a flat grille. Only the C34 (and C40) had the folded horn and angled grille, the latter seen in the 30th Street photo. If other JBLs had an angled grille like that, I haven't seen them.
     
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  24. DMortensen

    DMortensen Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Seattle, WA USA
    The presentation on Saturday went better than I thought it would. There was a quite decent audience, including people who were at 30th St like Don Puluse and Steve Epstein, as well as a couple others like Joel Spector who worked for NBC but went there a few times. Joel's first visit involved watching a couple of 30 piece marching bands on opposite sides of the studio doing some kind of Audio Spectacular. The PA guy, whose name I didn't get, told me afterward that when he was 6 years old his class took a school bus for a field trip visit to the studio and were shown around! As he watched the presentation he saw and remembered more and more that that was the place he visited.

    I mentioned the control room monitor ID above, but didn't have time that morning to make a new slide. I mentioned your names!

    Thanks again to everyone who has helped so much to tell the studio's story. I look forward to further explorations.

    Now to leave to go home.
     
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  25. lukpac

    lukpac Senior Member

    Location:
    Milwaukee, WI
    For those interested, the AES PNW Section has posted a few photos, as well as an audio recording of the whole meeting:

    AES PNW Meeting Report - A Pictorial History of the Columbia Records 30th Street Studio

    Compelling even without the visuals. As a plus the audio recording is really good too! Great job Dan!
     
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