Petition launched to reintroduce Technics turntables (Update: The SL-1200 is Back!)*

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by englishbob, May 27, 2014.

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  1. oregonalex

    oregonalex Forum Resident

    This is hard to visualize and I may have it backwards, but humor me: On the picture below both are the same cartridges, left in Nagaoka, right in Technics headshell. Assume the tonearm VTA height setting the same. Now imagine lowering each headshell on the record. With the Nagaoka, the sharper angle of the headshell will cause the tonearm to fall lower than with the Technics headshell and the actual VTA of the cantilever will be smaller. To get it to be the same, you will have to raise the VTA setting of the tonearm. Pretend your arm is a tonearm, your outstretched hand is a headshell and simulate each case. I am not 100% sure I am right, but pretty sure.

    With the Nagaoka headshell the tonearm bayonet will drop lower and for the same actual cantilever VTA the arm tube will be at sharper angle to the record surface than with the Technics headshell. This will make the effective length shorter given both cartridges are aligned the same in their respective headshells using the gauge.

    [​IMG]

    Ortofon SH-4 has the same angle as the Nagaoka AFAICT.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2017
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  2. AArchie

    AArchie Forum Resident

    Location:
    Colorado
    The picture on the left will require a lower VTA to keep the tonearm level than that on the right. The only way to close the gap is to lower VTA. If the VTA is set so that the right hand picture has the tonearm level than the arm will slope downward towards the record with the left-hand setup. Lowering the VTA ring will level the arm in that case. This is the exact situation I have with my HSs and MK2 using different Ortofon carts with the same geometry. When I swap HSs (and carts) between my Technics HS and Ortofon HS I have to lower VTA for the Ortofon HS.

    Is that what you are saying or the opposite?

    Edit: Am I causing confusion by misusing the term VTA? I don't mean to change the VTA. What I mean when I use the term is the tonearm adjustment ring to raise and lower the tonearm. Sorry if I confused. o_O
     
  3. oregonalex

    oregonalex Forum Resident

    I think we need to establish terminology to be able to make sense of it:

    VTA = Vertical Tracking Angle = the angle between the cartridge cantilever and the surface of the record. In an ideal case, you achieve the manufacturer recommended VTA when the mounting surface (top) of the cartridge is parallel to the record.

    VTA adjustment can be achieved by:
    • Turning the tonearm VTA adjustment ring to raise and lower the tonearm or
    • Adding/removing cartridge spacers or
    • Using a headshell with a different bayonet axis to mounting surface angle
    If the headshell's cartridge-mounting surface (bottom) is in line with the axis of the bayonet mount (as is the case with the Technics headshell) then the tonearm tube will be parallel to the record surface when the VTA is set right. If, however, the cartridge mounting surface of the headshell is angled (Ortofon, Nagaoka), then the tonearm tube will not be parallel to the record when the cartridge mounting surface is.

    So you are not trying to level the tonearm tube, rather you want the cartridge top to be level. It just so happens that with the Technics headshell, the tonearm tube will also be level in that case.

    Of course, if you want to be really precise about this, you actually want to measure the angle of the cantilever to the record or, better yet, the surface raking angle (SRA) of the stylus itself. But let's keep to the simplified case: Level cartridge top equals correct VTA.

    Making sense so far?
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2017
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  4. AArchie

    AArchie Forum Resident

    Location:
    Colorado
    "If, however, the cartridge mounting surface of the headshell is angled (Ortofon, Nagaoka), then the tonearm tube will not be parallel to the record when the cartridge mounting surface is."

    I agree with everything you said in your last post. However, if my SH-4 headshells are not parallel to my arm when mounted, it's not enough to "put in your eye," as my late father would say. I remember seeing posts saying headshells were off axis but I wasn't aware that that was a general thing. Are these headshells designed this way? As I said, mine don't seem to be. BTW, the only reason I'm not using the Technics HS in general is that my Ortofon carts have a nub on top for Azimuth adjustment and the Technics' HS has a hollowed out area where the nub is.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2017
  5. back2vinyl

    back2vinyl Forum Resident

    Location:
    London, UK
    I'm with AArchie all the way on this. It's inconceivable that a correctly mounted headshell would deliver a cartridge top that wasn't parallel with the tonearm unless it was very seriously defective in manufacture. I can check my Ortofon headshell again but I'm pretty sure it's not defective, so we're left with a situation where the Ortofon holds the cartridge further away from the record surface than the stock Technics, leaving a bigger gap to be filled. (As shown in oregonalex's splendid pictures.) If you're using a shallow cartrisge like the AT33PTG/II (16mm), you need spacers even when using the stock Technics headshell and the Ortofon headshell makes matters much worse, in my experience.
     
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  6. oregonalex

    oregonalex Forum Resident

    You guys may be right. If you look at my picture above, you can see the distance between the stylus tip and the gauge is about 50% larger with the Nag than with the Technics. It could be either because of the thickness of the headshell or the angle - I really don't know how to measure it precisely. It *LOOKS* more angled to me, but eyeballing it is difficult. But if it is as you say, that would be good news. That would mean the overhang gauge is always correct (we don't need no stinking protractors :)).

    As for the VTA, I actually do measure the cantilever angle with a microscope, so I don't care either way. EDIT: Actually, I do care. That means any cartridge less than ~21mm tall would need a spacer in these 3rd party headshells. Nuts. The stock headshell works fine. Too bad the new ones with the gold clips are so pricey.
     
    Last edited: Nov 11, 2017
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  7. snorker

    snorker Big Daddy

    Kevin of KAB told me the Technics headshell is angled by design.

    He wrote me as follows:

    I would stick with the stock headshell. I still think it is one of the better ones out there. It is also properly designed to compensate for the small upward motion you get when you only use one bayonette pin.

    The original SME stylus HS's used to pins one on top, one on bottom.
    That keeps the headshell perfectly straight.
    When you only use one, there is a slight upward force that tilts the headshell up ever so slightly.
    It you look at the back of the 1200 headshell, you will see it is not at right angles to the top, it has a small angle to it.​
     
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  8. AArchie

    AArchie Forum Resident

    Location:
    Colorado
    First, why doesn't Technics put two pins on theirs (or any of hte other makers)? Second, I can possibly see a slight angle on my Technics HS but it looks like it goes opposite to what would be needed it the pin (on top) pulls the HS up. The angle I see also would push the HS up (the angle between the mounting ring on the immediate bach of the HS and the HS top is greater than 90 deg). My Ortofon looks more square. I'm not sure how much these slight angles matter but in the future I'll be paying closer attention to leveling the HS.
     
  9. oregonalex

    oregonalex Forum Resident

    Probably a good advice. I think I am done messing with third party shells. It ain't worth it.
     
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  10. back2vinyl

    back2vinyl Forum Resident

    Location:
    London, UK
    Again, that's my experience too. I can't check at the moment because I have an SME arm on the turntable but I spent a lot of time dickering around with headshells and my clear recollection is that the stock Technics headshell, old and new, had a very slight downward tilt to the headshell mating surface, going from rear to front, while the Ortofon was dead flat. With the Technics, this made matters even worse from a VTA perspective because it meant that to get the headshell flat, you had to get the rear end of the arm even lower - but if you had already hit bottom, then the only alternative was even more spacers and mats at the cartridge end.

    On top of all that, the tonearm itself wasn't straight and was slightly angled downwards at the headshell end! So you had everything conspiring against you: first, even if everything had been straight, the tonearm wouldn't go low enough for a 16mm cartridge. On top of that, the headshell was angled downwards, which made matters worse, and on top of that, the tonearm was angled downwards, which made matters ever worser! In the end I gave up and just put on my old SME V arm but even that needs a 3mm headshell spacer to get correct VTA with a little bit over to play with. If using a 16mm cartridge, you would need more than that to get a truly correct VTA with the stock headshell, and probably quite a lot more, in my experience.

    Don't get me wrong - this is a very fine turntable indeed and the arm is fine too. It's just not very well suited to shallow cartridges like the AT33PTG/II, or not in its stock form, anyway.
     
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  11. oregonalex

    oregonalex Forum Resident

    Here I have taken aligned pictures of the various headshells. The bottoms of the gauges are horizontal. The red lines drawn near the top of the headshells are also horizontal. You guys tell me what you see, but I think I see the Nagaoka and Ortofon being slightly tilted upwards and the Technics perfectly level. Could it be optical illusion?

    Technics SFPCC31001K:
    [​IMG]

    Ortofon SH-4:
    [​IMG]

    Nagaoka HS-5010:
    [​IMG]
     
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  12. snorker

    snorker Big Daddy

    Yup, I agree. Technics looks level and the others look tilted up. Does it look that way when you mount them in the ‘arm?
     
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  13. oregonalex

    oregonalex Forum Resident

    Yup. The Ortofon very noticeably. Strangely enough it is not as obvious with the Nagaoka.
     
  14. bluemooze

    bluemooze Senior Member

    Location:
    Frenchtown NJ USA
    Excellent! :righton:
     
  15. AArchie

    AArchie Forum Resident

    Location:
    Colorado
    When the HS gets locked in by the single pin that tilt may get worse. (We are dealing with small angles though. One of my carts' cantilevers is several degrees off from the spec'd VTA and it took a shim to get it right. The arm height adjustment wasn't nearly big enough.) Whether these HS misalignments are enough to worry about is debatable but since the new Technics HS seems to have azimuth adjustment built in it really seems to be the best option all around. Too bad the only price I've seen for them is $100.
     
  16. oregonalex

    oregonalex Forum Resident

    Both RFA3670 (1200GAE headshell) and TPBGA003 (1200GR headshell) go in Japan for the same price, less than 6000 yen.

    I have compared the 1200GAE and 1200GR original headshells and can't see any difference whatsoever. So I have just bought a TPBGA003 on eBay from rohihita110 (bought from him before without issues) for $64 + $8 shipping. There is now a listing for even less, but the guy does not have as good a rep.
     
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  17. recstar24

    recstar24 Senior Member

    Location:
    Glen Ellyn, IL
    Holy smokes if the technics headshell is that much, I'm just going to go with the ortofon Concorde S unibody style with om40 stylus from KAB for my next cart upgrade.
     
  18. freedomgli

    freedomgli Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Reston, Va
    Argghhh! Dust cover down while spinning records! The horror! ;-)
     
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  19. freedomgli

    freedomgli Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Reston, Va
    Well, I got a Mk2 headshell last month for $34. But now KAB is saying they're no longer available. I'd still stick with an OEM Technics headshell unless you have good reason to do something else.
     
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  20. wgb113

    wgb113 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chester County, PA
    While I didn't measure or weigh them there are cosmetic differences between the two - the G/GAE headshell being a smooth finish, the GR being more eggshell/orange peel-ish and the G/GAE having a thinner but longer finger lift.
     
  21. oregonalex

    oregonalex Forum Resident

    Wow, I had them here both, installing a cartridge in them, I can't believe I missed that. I did weigh them: GAE was 7.61g, GR was 7.77g, I attributed it to normal mfg tolerance. The old-style SFPCC31001K that I have is 7.60g.
     
  22. Gabe Walters

    Gabe Walters Forum Resident

    I have cats.
     
  23. oregonalex

    oregonalex Forum Resident

    I have dust. ;)

    Seriously though - I did extensive listening with lid up/down/removed. Could not hear any difference.
     
  24. back2vinyl

    back2vinyl Forum Resident

    Location:
    London, UK
    Those are great pictures oregonalex and thanks for posting but there is too much scope for optical illusion for my liking and the biggest problem is that, certainly in the case of the Technics, you can't even see the cartridge mating surface, which is the only surface that matters in this case. My suggestion would be to do the pictures again but this time with a small, rectangular bubble level pressed against the cartridge mating surface of each headshell. If you don't have such a level, I could try to do this myself but I would have to get the arm and headshell out of storage first so it might take me a day or two to get around to it.

    BTW I made a mistake in my last post when talking about the Technics tonearm. I said the end of the tonearm slopes down but thinking about it, I mis-remembered and in fact it flicks slightly up. But this too is a problem in itself because it takes the needle further away from the playing surface, so you need more headshell spacers or turntable mats to close the gap.
     
  25. Gabe Walters

    Gabe Walters Forum Resident

    I can't imagine it does make much difference on this deck--it's very well damped. Let me ask you, assuming the same cartridge type in both the stock headshell and the Ortofon SH-4, how should the arm height ring be adjusted when using the Ortofon? Down a half-point, maybe?
     
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