The Grateful Thread

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by JRM, Apr 11, 2014.

  1. US Blues

    US Blues Undermining Consensus Reality

    For your listing pleasure: 14 November 1972 II- Oklahoma. Some truly mind-boggling moments in the transition from He's Gone > Truckin' :drool:
     
  2. DrLunchbox

    DrLunchbox Forum Deadhead #1604

    Location:
    Hillsborough, NC
    By and large, I agree with your statements on Holly and Tom Hamilton. Holly was just in town but I missed the show (on kid duty. ARGH!)

    I saw Greensky Bluegrass a couple of weeks ago and they did a full set of Dead material. At the very end of Eyes I swear (either Bruzza or Anders) played the post-verse Stella Blue riff. It was subtle, and if I hadn't been messing around with Stella Blue lately I probably would have missed it, but I thought that was a great little tease and placement of it.

    Re: Tom Hamilton, my only qualms about him are his voice/phrasing/cadence. I don't like it on every song he sings with JRAD. Most of them are fine, but there are some (I can't think of one off the top of my head) where I would prefer something different. Atlantic City comes to mind, as one example, now that I think of it. I was at that show and I thought the vocal delivery could have been better.

    Tangentially, I don't really like Josh Mayer's voice on most of the Dead material I've heard him do. I just don't think it suits it. I have no issue with his guitar playing. Whereas to me, Hamilton has an occasional miss vocally in JRAD, Mayer has an occasional hit in Dead & Co. I prefer the higher batting average.

    As I've said before if I had the choice between JRAD (or Oteil & Friends) or Dead & Co, I'd personally choose JRAD every time. YMMV.
     
  3. SBegonias17

    SBegonias17 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Virginia
    Does anyone know anything about these Fabulous Fox Limited Editions floating around eBay for Dave's Picks 8 (one of the three Dave's I don't have). It appears they are from reputable sellers - did they get funny with their replacement copies on that edition? I can't find any reference to them outside of ebay sellers.
     
  4. bmoregnr

    bmoregnr Forum Rezident

    Location:
    1060 W. Addison
    I noticed that Oppo dropped HDCD in new models, and they were probably one of the last ubiquitous users. I don’t want to open a can of worms, but I have noticed a lot of discussion over the years around the forum that there is likely a penalty paid by any non-HDCD decoding users. Probably my only non-HDCD user example displaying this would be Neil Young’s stuff. I can go back and forth between hi res and redbook on a lot of remasters and I get a sense of resolution differences in general; but a non-HDCD redbook vs. a Neil Young hi res clearly tells me at least in the instances of the 3-4 albums I have tried this experiment, there is definitely more than resolution differences alone going on, and the non-HDCD redbook gets pretty “bottled up” sounding. Steve H. stopped using it in 2011 because he felt it colored his remasterings for example; read only if you like worms by the can: I've decided not to run my masterings through an HDCD converter..

    Also has anyone else noticed were are blowing through the GD years by the page numbers these days. I have recently been compelled to listen to a show by the year commensurate with the page!
     
  5. Claxton

    Claxton I like chicks and cars and partyin’ hard

    Location:
    The 817, TX
    And I want to tack on 14 November 1971 - Fort Worth. The show that got me on the bus. A 16 song prime '71 first set, followed by a killer Truckin>Drums>Other One>MAMU>Other One>Wharf Rat.
     
  6. US Blues

    US Blues Undermining Consensus Reality

    As noted upthread, Jeffrey Norman uses a legacy DAW (Digital Audio Workstation) built by Pacific Microsonics, the company that developed HDCD. This DAW is still considered to be one of the best sounding systems available for the work Jeffrey does on our behalf. As @rbbert noted this DAW will add the HDCD trigger code even if HDCD processing circuitry is not utilized. And as further noted, many recent GD releases are not HDCD encoded in any meaningful way, but the encoding to trigger the HDCD light on equipped players still present in the metadata.

    If you really want to get your eardrums upset, we can open a discussion of how most every DAC made throws away the actual data stream from a CD, or HD source, and mathematically recreates the digital audio information stream. :yikes:
     
    Billy_Sunday, nitsuj, adamos and 2 others like this.
  7. rbbert

    rbbert Forum Resident

    Location:
    Reno, NV, USA
    But there are good reasons for this. AFAIK, AudioNote is the only current manufacturer to not use oversampling or even a reconstruction filter. With R2R "ladder" DAC's, even though the datastream is not converted to PWM as it is for DAC's using delta-sigma convertors or FGPA technology, there are still digital filters pre digital-to-analog conversion which changes ("throws away"?) the actual data stream. As far as PWM (or DSD), many top digital engineers and designers think this results in better sound anyway; HQ Player (a highly regarded computer music playback software) can convert everything to DSD512, which many listeners think is the best sounding setting available in that player.
     
    nitsuj likes this.
  8. warewolf95

    warewolf95 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Greenville, SC
    So yesterday morning I strongly enjoyed the first 1/3 of 6/14/76

    I came to a natural stopping point after T Jed and will be picking it up this evening starting with the 20 minute PITB. Can't wait. :)

    I can't stop listening to Todd. Sorry guys. :D
     
  9. bzfgt

    bzfgt The Grand High Exalted Mystic Ruler

    Todd Rundgren?
     
    warewolf95 likes this.
  10. bmoregnr

    bmoregnr Forum Rezident

    Location:
    1060 W. Addison
    Yes I should have been clearer and said non-decoding of HDCD with peak extend in use for those Neil examples. I agree we should note/remember there is a difference between HDCD as implemented by Norman without peak extend as you explained well, and then the same HDCD light showing but with peak extend implemented, perhaps more often found when analyzing the files if not discerned by ear.

    I very recently tried my first GD hi res against its CD with 5-8-77 and I don't get a sense of a HDCD penalty in this case, just mastering differences related to dynamic range, both being good with different qualities.
     
  11. ianuaditis

    ianuaditis Matthew 21:17

    Location:
    Long River Place
    I presumed that's what he meant, I noticed he has a Todd Rundgren thread going right now.

    But it took me a bit to figure it out, I'm not on a first name basis with Todd.
     
    thrivingonariff, bzfgt and budwhite like this.
  12. Stone Turntable

    Stone Turntable Independent Head

    Location:
    New Mexico USA
    Could you or someone else explain a bit more about how this reliably establishes that HDCD is non-functional and therefore a useless feature of the May '77 set? These DIY digital audio testing tools are way beyond my ability to understand or verify independently.

    I continue to ask because— for example — on Jeffrey Norman's website the May '77 box is described as "Sourced from the Betty Cantor-Jackson soundboard recordings, transferred by Plangent Processes / Mastered in HDCD by Jeffrey Norman."

    And I have trouble wrapping my head around the idea that Norman is either knowingly participating in an extended campaign of false advertising about Dead HDCD sound quality, or somehow doesn't understand that the HDCD encoding doesn't actually function properly on all these releases.
     
    sparkmeister likes this.
  13. Dahabenzapple

    Dahabenzapple Forum Resident

    Location:
    Livingston NJ
    I will be able to listen closer to Tom Hamilton at the next JRAD show since the first one was the first one for me. I loved the concert but I was in no way keyed in to the two different guitarists in any serious way as I was more just experiencing the groove, the vibe and the overall experience. I’d love to go twice in January but right now it’s just Saturday night 1/13/18.
     
    Crispy Rob and US Blues like this.
  14. US Blues

    US Blues Undermining Consensus Reality

    Schiit Audio's DACs preserve the original data stream and use medical/military grade DAC chips that were not designed for audio reproduction. They also use a different filtering system to preserve time/phase relationships so spatial cues are fully reproduced.
     
    nitsuj likes this.
  15. wavethatflag

    wavethatflag God is love, but get it in writing.

    Location:
    SF Bay Area
    It was a good night. Phil even varied the Donor Rap a bit and said how he was so lucky to playing with musicians of a high caliber, and I'm sure he was referencing what TH was doing. That's my take anyway.
     
    DrLunchbox likes this.
  16. Crispy Rob

    Crispy Rob Cat Juggler

    Location:
    Oakland, CA
    Or a comp, possibly.
     
  17. rbbert

    rbbert Forum Resident

    Location:
    Reno, NV, USA
    He knows exactly what he is doing, and why. You can email him at

    [email protected]

    BTW, these aren't "DIY digital audio testing tools". They are pro or semi-pro digital audio editors, with for the most part the same audio processing plug-ins that most audio engineers use.

    more info on HDCD

    High Definition Compatible Digital - Wikipedia
     
    budwhite likes this.
  18. rbbert

    rbbert Forum Resident

    Location:
    Reno, NV, USA
    Hmmm, quoting advertising copy as technical information :cool:

    Schitt's DAC's are great stuff, but so are DAC's from many, many other manufacturers
     
  19. Stone Turntable

    Stone Turntable Independent Head

    Location:
    New Mexico USA
    In fact I went ahead and emailed Jeffrey Norman earlier today and outlined everything I've been reading about inconsistent HDCD execution on Dead releases, the results people are reporting using foobar 2000 and dBpoweramp etc., and the question of "peak extension," and asked him for his take given the consistent marketing and labeling of Dead CDs as HDCD-enhanced products.

    I'll report back if and when I get a response.
     
    Six Bachelors and bmoregnr like this.
  20. rbbert

    rbbert Forum Resident

    Location:
    Reno, NV, USA
    They are not "HDCD enhanced" products. The vast majority of CD's labelled with the HDCD logo don't use Peak Extension or Low Level expansion; that doesn't mean they aren't "HDCD" (patent owned by Microsoft, BTW), just that they sound the same whether or not they are played on a machine with HDCD decoding. HDCD is merely a "flag" put into the LSB once every few seconds, which turns on the HDCD decoder in players which have it. Players like earlier (than the BDP-20x players) Oppo's could manually turn HDCD on or off, and for HDCD's without the 2 volume expansion features, the disc sounds the same with the decoder on or off.
     
    budwhite, Crispy Rob and wavethatflag like this.
  21. warewolf95

    warewolf95 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Greenville, SC
    That's the guy! :)
     
    Crispy Rob and rockinlazys like this.
  22. Stone Turntable

    Stone Turntable Independent Head

    Location:
    New Mexico USA
    I guess I’m not sure if you’re saying Dead HDCD discs are achieving some things but not others, on a case-by-case basis; or that it’s a mastering approach that has its usefulness in production but not in playback; or that it’s some kind of useless holdover that is essentially a scam, something that should be discarded in the name of truth in packaging. I’m honestly confused about what you’re telling me about the dozens of HDCD Dead CDs on my shelves that I’ve acquired over nearly two decades.

    I’m asking as a non-engineer who back in the day bought not one but two HDCD players (Denon and Oppo) in large part to listen to Grateful Dead releases!
     
    Last edited: Nov 14, 2017
  23. scribbs

    scribbs Resident Mockery

    Location:
    Surf City USA
    HDCD talk? Am I having a flashback?
     
  24. Billy_Sunday

    Billy_Sunday ... formerly ThirdBowl

    Location:
    Santa Cruz, CA
    12/1/79 - 18 minute Sugaree. Sick.
     
    budwhite, nitsuj, Crispy Rob and 3 others like this.
  25. US Blues

    US Blues Undermining Consensus Reality

    I was at work and didn't have time to find anything technical. Question for you: how many DAC's on the market keep the original data?
     

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