Fifty year old phono cartridges

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by 62vauxhall, Oct 3, 2017.

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  1. coopmv

    coopmv Newton 1/30/2001 - 8/31/2011

    Location:
    CT, USA
    So older cartridge does not equate to sound quality degradation as long as the stylus is in good shape?
     
  2. PhxJohn

    PhxJohn Forum Resident

    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ
    Pretty much. Age and quality are not mutually exclusive. An old cartridge can be renewed with a new stylus assembly. If the stylus is in fact rather new and has not been sitting around for decades as the suspension will solidify and render it useless. This applies of course to cartridges with replaceable styli.
     
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  3. coopmv

    coopmv Newton 1/30/2001 - 8/31/2011

    Location:
    CT, USA
    Has Jico pretty shut down? I still have two Stanton 881S that can use some new styli ...
     
  4. PhxJohn

    PhxJohn Forum Resident

    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ
    Not at all. BUT, look on Ebay and Voice of Music. JICO makes styli for EVG as well. And Pfanstiehl is going strong. You can get a good stylus for about $29 with a few minutes of shopping.

    Here....I shopped for you: Product Detail
     
  5. coopmv

    coopmv Newton 1/30/2001 - 8/31/2011

    Location:
    CT, USA
    Thanks.
     
  6. PhxJohn

    PhxJohn Forum Resident

    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ
    Listening to Madonna's album 'Madonna'. Current song is 'Lucky Star'. Plenty of bass, crystal clear highs, tons of detail with the 60 year old $10 GE VR 1000 cartridge mounted in a stock AR 77-XB. I cannot honestly say that the $2500 TT in the livingroom sounds any better.
     
  7. coopmv

    coopmv Newton 1/30/2001 - 8/31/2011

    Location:
    CT, USA
    Great to hear this. I have always been under the impression that phono cartridge older than 30 years old is trash ...
     
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  8. PhxJohn

    PhxJohn Forum Resident

    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ
    Nothing has really changed except that now prices are ridiculous. My Ortofon Quintet Blue was $524.
     
  9. coopmv

    coopmv Newton 1/30/2001 - 8/31/2011

    Location:
    CT, USA
    The price inflation of audio gears is even worse than college tuition ...
     
  10. McLover

    McLover Senior Member

    Most common place they ever were used on was some older AMI jukeboxes before AMI switched to the Shure M33 cartridge with the advent of the Continental and later to the Shure M 44-C. Consumer Reports reviewed it and didn't give it good marks then (and this was when the magazine had decent audio reviews). Shure's M3D was regarded by most as the most successful of the first generation Stereo cartridges performance wise, with the Pickering and Stanton offerings and the Ortofon SPU the main rivals. The third generation Stereo cartridges from the major brands was usually the first modern MM and MI offerings with performance really suited to modern standards.
     
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  11. PhxJohn

    PhxJohn Forum Resident

    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ
    I guess the Columbia was or was similar to one of the Columbia's here:
    Consumer Reports 1960 Ratings, cartridges and tonearms (page 1) - Cartridges and styli - Lenco Heaven Turntable Forum

    I know with GE, the third attempt was the charm. The Golden Classics are terrible. The VR-225/227's are terrible. The VR 1000 is quite spectacular even with compliance similar to the Shure M3D. Shure got it right it seems from the start with the M3D. As far as the other major players back then, I honestly do not know.
     
  12. coopmv

    coopmv Newton 1/30/2001 - 8/31/2011

    Location:
    CT, USA
    I did not even know GE used to make phono cartridge. Was the product line carried over from RCA when the latter was acquired by GE in the late 70's or early 80's?
     
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  13. PhxJohn

    PhxJohn Forum Resident

    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ
    Ahh...no. GE used to make variable reluctance cartridges which are neither moving magnet nor moving coil. Only the cantilever moves to generate the electrical signal. The final cartridge....the VR 1000 was designed by Peter Pritchard who quit GE to form ADC and later Sonus. The GE VR cartridges generate the signal at the stylus tip area rather than at the opposite end of the cantilever as does every other cartridge except for the London Decca. There may be one or two obscure other cartridges that generate the signal at the stylus tip area. I became very interested in the VR 1000 when I realized how it works. I expected incredible channel separation, transient response, and clarity and that is what I am experiencing. Many people were turned off by the GE VR 1000's high tracking force. But that is dependent on the stylus not the cartridge. I found a stylus...the EVG2751DE that is an elliptical that tracks great at 3 grams. Since no one makes styli for any of the GE VR stereo cartridges, I bought the entire supply of EVG2751DE's. The Walco 553-STD works okay with the GE VR 1000 but it is a conical stylus. I much prefer the EVG. I have supplies of both. I may very well have the last of the Walco's as well. I don't know why the GE VR 1000 was not more popular. Maybe it was too inexpensive to have been taken seriously. Prices now on Ebay sometimes exceed $300. Not bad for a $10 cartridge from the mid 60's.
     
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  14. McLover

    McLover Senior Member

    The only RCA magnetic cartridges ever sold were never sold to consumers. Only by RCA Broadcast on their RCA Broadcast tonearm with the integrated cartridge.
     
  15. McLover

    McLover Senior Member

    It was not successful because it had too many problems and was too finicky. GE never really succeeded in Stereo on the VR cartridges. And GE never made their own styli, which didn't help either. This design had technical issues. Getting the stylus centered between the pole pieces allowed little clearance on the record. Peter Pritchard left GE and founded ADC, which did Stereo with the lower tip mass and lower tracking forces he wanted to do, but GE would not let him. The GE VR 1000 is finicky like the Decca cartridges are. They don't play nice in all tonearms of the day. The inconsistent GE styli did them no favors. And they had issues playing the loudest cut records of the era. GE's biggest issue is they didn't take Stereo seriously until too late. And it put them behind.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2017
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  16. PhxJohn

    PhxJohn Forum Resident

    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ
    I only have two records that it cannot play and I have not tried those two records with the EVG styli. I bet the Shure M3D cannot play those two records either. Compliance is compliance. I am not aware of any other problems. I have been using the VR 1000 on a daily basis and really enjoying it. The inconsistent styli....I TOTALLY agree. In my opinion, the VR 1000 exceeds at stereo. The channel separation is the best that I have ever heard. It does many things extremely well. It was designed in 1960. It missed the trackability and light tracking boats of 1965 and faded into the past. I wish that I had discovered it decades ago. It would have saved me some money on cartridges.
     
  17. coopmv

    coopmv Newton 1/30/2001 - 8/31/2011

    Location:
    CT, USA
    If you apply a factor of 30 to account for inflation (or for the depreciation of the dollar), this should be a $300 cartridge today. I forgot the length of time but for every so many decades, a factor of 30 should be applied to the price of the original product to come up with the present-day equivalent ...
     
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  18. stereoguy

    stereoguy Its Gotta Be True Stereo!

    Location:
    NYC
    UPDATE:

    Ok, making progress in my Ge-VR 1000 project with the Garrard Type A table. I cleaned all the contact points and now, volume of the right channel is loud and right where it should be. Thats the good news. The Bad news is that the left channel is way too low, AND now I know I have the cart wired wrong in the headshell. I played The Beatles "Please Please Me" Stereo Lp and both channels had both the instruments and the vocals. I SHOULD have heard extreme stereo separation. So its back to the headshell to figure this out. I will say that from what I heard tonight, the VR-1000 is good, VERY similar to my Shure M91ED.
     
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  19. PhxJohn

    PhxJohn Forum Resident

    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ
    I bought two on Ebay. One i paid $220 and it came with two NOS EV 2743D styli. The second one I bought for $164. It has a stylus in it but I will replace it before I use it.
     
  20. PhxJohn

    PhxJohn Forum Resident

    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ
    All right !!!!!!!!!!!!! Maybe this will help you:
    Color code for phono cartridge wiring | Knowledge Base | Shure Americas
     
  21. coopmv

    coopmv Newton 1/30/2001 - 8/31/2011

    Location:
    CT, USA
    Thanks for the info. When RCA was acquired by GE, NBC/WNBC and all the NBC radio stations along with RCA TV, the home entertainment equipment division was also included. Eventually, GE sold all the TV business to Thomson (?) of France. The GE and RCA brands of TV were still around a dozen years ago but have now disappeared for good ...
     
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  22. PhxJohn

    PhxJohn Forum Resident

    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ
    I don't believe it !!!! With the EVG stylus, it is playing George Michael's 'Hard Day' with no problem!!!!! No skipping, no mistracking. YES !!!!! At 3 grams ! Maybe it could track it lighter.....but I don't care. This is great !!!!!!
     
  23. stereoguy

    stereoguy Its Gotta Be True Stereo!

    Location:
    NYC
    2nd update:

    Well, I have gotten the Volume problems fixed, that must have been the contact points. But the problem now is this: The cart appears to be playing in mono only.....no stereo seperation at all. I tried all the wiring combinations and no go. SO, either the cart is bad internally, OR the headshell has a wiring problem. Tomorrow I will move the GE VR 1000 to a second headshell that has the conventional Shure wiring and see what happens.My guess tho, is that the cart is bad. Which is not the end of the world either, as I could use it for 45s.
     
  24. PhxJohn

    PhxJohn Forum Resident

    Location:
    Phoenix, AZ
    Here are some links so that you can see what was available 50 years ago:

    1967 Allied Radio Catalog - Electronics For Everyone #260B Low-res page 150 of 526
    1967 Allied Radio Catalog - Electronics For Everyone #260B Low-res page 151 of 526

    I was 13 in 1967. Who would have imagined that 50 years later, Shure would only have one 'audiophile' cartridge ? And that Pickering, Empire, and ADC would be gone ? Or that Ortofon would be selling 500,000 cartridges a year ? Or that the 'lowly' GE VR 1000 would be selling used for over $300 ?
     
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  25. coopmv

    coopmv Newton 1/30/2001 - 8/31/2011

    Location:
    CT, USA
    Was Ortofon even around at the time? I was 14 in 1967. Yeah, Shure was the first name in phono cartridge back in the day. Many venerable audio names have since disappeared ...
     
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