When did John decide to leave The Beatles/what was the "final straw"?

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by The Doctor, Dec 5, 2017.

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  1. California Couple

    California Couple dislike us on facebook

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    Newport Beach
    Well, the Television was black and white and there was no remote control.

    My parents made me eat Liver.

    I could not drive.



    But then again I did not have to work.
     
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  2. Crimson jon

    Crimson jon Forum Resident

    Location:
    Houston
    I know I wish we could go back to presidents being assassinated, segregation, the draft, civil unrest....the world now has the internet which enables us to interact and learn as never before. The 60'S were interesting but I'll take the modern era for everything outside of music.
     
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  3. Siegmund

    Siegmund Vinyl Sceptic

    Location:
    Britain, Europe
    I've read it in more than one source that the turning point was, indeed, his performance at the 1969 Toronto Pop Festival.

    I've also read that he first considered leaving the band in 1966, after the end of their final tour.

    There is some speculation that he never wanted to leave and that his 'notice to quit' announcement was just an attempt by him to re-gain control over the band he had founded. Then Paul called his bluff and announced that he was leaving. After that, it really was all over.

    I think this is credible, if not provable. I've long felt that Yoko's comment about Paul hurting John more than anyone else referred to this incident.
     
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  4. Haristar

    Haristar Apollo C. Vermouth

    Location:
    Hampshire, UK
    Did he intend to permanently leave the band, or did he just intend to take a sabbatical but didn't tell the others?
     
  5. Chuckee

    Chuckee Forum Resident

    Location:
    Upstate, NY, USA
    Well Paul certainly believed it was over when he told him. John could have eventually changed his mind, the Who were over at least once and I think the Stones were pretty much finished in the mid 80s, but mended fences.
     
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  6. California Couple

    California Couple dislike us on facebook

    Location:
    Newport Beach
    So George walks out.


    “McCartney and Starr seemed shocked, but Lennon was unruffled, launching into a version of the Who's "A Quick One, While He's Away," essentially mocking Harrison's anguish. Later that day, Ono took George's place, picked up a microphone and launched into a wordless blues, as the remaining Beatles joined in, not sure what else to do if they wanted to keep Lennon from bolting as well. (It is, in fact, a fairly remarkable performance.)

    Later that afternoon, Lennon suggested recruiting Eric Clapton to replace Harrison: "The point is, George leaves, and do we want to carry on as the Beatles? I certainly do."

    On Sunday, January 12th, all four Beatles met at Starr's house to try to resolve their differences, but when Ono persisted in speaking out on Lennon's behalf, Harrison walked out. The Beatles finally reached an accord days later, but Harrison imposed stiff terms: No more talk about any major live concerts, and no more work at Twickenham studios. Ono, however, would remain in attendance at all sessions, alongside John. "Yoko only wants to be accepted," Lennon said. "She wants to be one of us." When Starr replied, "She's not a Beatle, John, and she never will be," Lennon dug in his heels. "Yoko is part of me now. We're John and Yoko, we're together."



    Be it by drugs or Yoko brainwashing, it seems that by this point, John was fairly week minded.
     
  7. California Couple

    California Couple dislike us on facebook

    Location:
    Newport Beach
    “Time was running out on the project. Starr was obliged to begin filming The Magic Christian within days, and it was plain by the end of January that there was no longer time to plan a concert anywhere. Still, the Beatles and Lindsay-Hogg wanted an ending for the film they had begun, and on January 29th, somebody – some say Ringo, others claim it was Paul or even Lindsay-Hogg – suggested staging a concert the next afternoon on the rooftop of Apple's offices.”



    Typical Beatles, copying everything the Jefferson Airplane did. :evil:
     
  8. Fivebyfive

    Fivebyfive Forum Resident

    Location:
    East coast, US
    Or ... there was a Land called Passive-Aggressiva, and John was its king.
     
  9. Michael

    Michael I LOVE WIDE S-T-E-R-E-O!

    That works!
    and I enjoyed every minute!
     
  10. czeskleba

    czeskleba Senior Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    Well, to the best of our knowledge he did not express any ambivalence to his bandmates. And in restrospective interviews, he claimed that he was not ambivalent, and he provided an explanation for why he refrained from taking any legal or public action at the time. Now, it's possible he was secretly ambivalent (though he didn't say anything to Paul, George or Ringo). And it's possible he was lying in the interviews when he claimed he was not. But there isn't a lot of evidence to support that possibility. Certainly not enough to say he "absolutely" was ambivalent. Given the absence of strong evidence to the contrary, it makes sense to me to take him at his word in this case.
     
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  11. Maranatha5585

    Maranatha5585 BELLA + RIP In Memoriam

    Location:
    Down South
    One more...

    Kata Billups c., 2005
    [​IMG]
    A picture is worth a thousand words...

    Paul looks like he is going to blow his head off.. or is giving her the finger, George appears distressed in disbelief and
    disgust, Patty frozen, Ringo is looking concerned on the other side of the walkway trying to hide himself with something ..
    The crowd is sparse, with people leaving .. John giving the thumbs up and cheering Yoko on, while she looks fully in control.
    And... what's that second grapefruit say about... hair.
     
  12. Haristar

    Haristar Apollo C. Vermouth

    Location:
    Hampshire, UK
    George looks like he needs to go to the toilet.
     
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  13. maywitch

    maywitch Forum Resident

    Didn't John really say that Klein was the one asking him but Paul was happy about he decided not to say anything. That's different from Paul asking or telling him, along with Klein to keep quiet. It sounds more like John is just including Paul because Paul was pleased with his decision not to go public. But it was also like 6 months before Paul made the announcement. At the time Paul was 'happy about it' he may have still had some small little hope that maybe John would change his mind but then John from everything Paul could see did not, at which point he went screw it and said what he said.

    As for the "shares" - didn't Peter Doggett basically blow that notion out by pointing out the number of shares Paul acquired was negligeable. So John basically didn't know what the hell he was talking about? I'm not good with numbers but I think they both started out 750,000 shares. If I recall correctly Paul had about a thousand more shares than that, so you know less than 0.5% more than he started with. The real thing which unbalanced their numbers is the fact that John had gotten rid of about 200,000 shares(I believe it was to pay for his divorce). Paul's 1000 shares literally meant nothing considering the nearly 200,000 John was lacking. In fact, IMO, it actually becomes kind of ridiculous to expect Paul to keep to some unwritten deal at that point - he already had 200,000 more shares than John without having bought anything, even if he just bought a few more on a whim, it made no genuine difference except in John's easily misled mind.

    Seems more like John allowed himself to be manipulated and blew a gasket over nothing.

    And you know IMO Paul had as much a right to say it as anyone. It really wasn't up to him to keep humoring John on the off chance John would change his mind someday if him and Yoko hit a rough patch. Frankly that's crappy behavior and it's every bit as controlling as wanting yet another run through on a song or telling someone how you want an instrument to sound. It's like people who ignore you until they have no one else and then are suddenly your best friend again. And looking at it from Paul's point of view, it may have seemed John was always doing this one way or another, to lesser extents - he did it with Stuart, then he did it with drugs(John's the one who sort of abdicated so he could stay in an LSD induced haze, he chose that), heck in a way you could even say he did when he bought a house in Weybridge, it made less sense for John to live in the suburbs than for Paul live in London(gee where would a young, creative, artistic, experimental type want to live, in the suburbs or in the most swinging happening city in the world at the time? what makes more sense? John was that too, he SHOULD have been in London, it's not Paul's fault he wasn't) - and then he'd want Paul there waiting when he was finished with whatever he was into this time, for Paul to fall back into line, a half step behind just to make sure John felt like the acknowledged leader.

    John said he wanted a divorce, nothing in John's behavior made it seem like he had changed his mind. They kept changing the rules on Paul. They really did change the rules - it really had been a one person veto, not a majority rules - until this. They did that, not Paul. They also made an agreement wherein Klein was the business manager for the Beatles as a group, the Eastmans would be the legal counsel or consultants(something like this) for the band. They broke that agreement, not Paul. Paul wasn't trying to force the Eastmans on them as managers, he liked them not just because of his girlfriend at the time, but because they only charged fees for services they were performing, not a percentage of the profits. But it wasn't a deal breaker. He just didn't want Klein. He showed himself willing to compromise, John was the one who didn't.
     
  14. muffmasterh

    muffmasterh Forum Resident

    Location:
    East London U.K
    thats a fair point, however the result is the same and either way it was down to him one way or another ...
     
  15. samthesham

    samthesham Forum Resident

    Location:
    Moorhead MN
    After J met Y@ her art show and met the one true love of his life(other than rock and roll) she began to open his eyes to other possibilities rather than being a corporate puppet controlled by the Establishment.The mid-20s is a crucial time for anyone that is when most folks begin to mature and form traits and personality and desert adolescent thoughts.Even though J was a intellectual music genius he was(as some people forget) a mid 20s adolescent male and yes he struggled with the same issues common to that age.Y became the eye opener to a whole new scene/world.In the1970 Jann Wenner interview he said as much.J began to drift away from the Beatle image on the day in 1966 when he met Y.And no Y did not breakup the Fabs its that Lennon was the 1st to manifest his out growth of being a Fab and becoming your own man.This is how interpret it.The final straw that broke the camels back was the death of Brian Epstein.After that the Beatles as a band began to fragment. Peace.
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2017
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  16. Flippikat

    Flippikat Forum Resident

    I wonder exactly when the idea of a live "comeback" Beatles concert was first proposed? If memory serves me right, the original plan was to showcase some White album shows in late 1968.? was that plan floated by Paul *before* the White Album was sequenced & sent for pressing?

    If Paul proposed it during the White Album sessions, a sober John could have taken stock of the tension, and suggested a break before going into the rehearsals.

    Perhaps going with George Martin's idea for a single album in late 1968 from those sessions (mostly songs too complex to play live), and another single album in, say, March 1969 from the White Album sessions with the stuff they're going to rehearse for a few concerts in April. I'm sure George H could be swayed if Not Guilty & Sour Milk Sea are in the lineup for those albums.

    Add in a few new tunes like 'Get Back' to the mix for the concerts (and subsequent live album), and you've got a plan for a better start to 1969. This is all assuming Ringo can be persuaded to turn down his role in the Magic Christian, mind you..
     
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  17. beatleroadie

    beatleroadie Forum Resident

    I thought John was an important piece in bringing Spector in to re-produce Let it Be and that he communicated with Spector to OK orchestrations and choirs added to some songs, all decisions and Beatles dealings that would have taken place in late '69-mid '70, supposedly after he "quit" and without Paul's direct involvement at Apple -- Remember it was Paul during this time who was more removed from Beatledom, having moved away with Linda to Scotland and vacated his say in Apple matters due to hating Klein and not wanting Klein as a manager.

    Then didn't John and Yoko also send the other guys a postcard from Denmark on or around the date of the I Me Mine session in January 1970, acknowledging that he was missing the session and giving them best wishes...something like that.

    I think in Sept 69 he was just pissed that the Beatles didn't snap to it and record Cold Turkey right after completing Abbey Road just as Paul had quickly answered his call to do Ballad of John & Yoko, so he kind of overreacted in anger during an Apple meeting and said he wanted a divorce. He also thought he was Jesus reincarnated at the time.

    If John had wanted them to record a tune quickly that had a larger commercial appeal, they'd have jumped on it, or if John had agreed to wait a few months to record Cold Turkey after they had a little break and closer to the end of 69, I think some things would have played out very differently in 1970...
     
    Last edited: Dec 6, 2017
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  18. Superior to Paul? I don't think John would say that about Paul. I think that he found a partner that he good relate to better than Paul certainly and had the same sensibility as John whereas Paul was going in a different direction. He reocgnied that Paul was a genius.
     
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  19. I honestly don't think they would have agreed to do Cold Turkey. They had already indicated as I recall that they didn't want to record it and release it.
     
  20. muffmasterh

    muffmasterh Forum Resident

    Location:
    East London U.K
    i did say that he was involved in attempting to salvage the Get Back/Let it Be project and he remained concerned about how the product sounded ( ie it did not make him puke ) but unlike the others he never got involved in any of the post production in the studio recordings/overdubs, he was clearly done with all that. Not sure about the postcard, like to have more info on that, George does make a comment about John's absence on the I me mine recording on 3rd Jan but its unclear if George was just being funny or if they actually half expected him to show up...
     
  21. muffmasterh

    muffmasterh Forum Resident

    Location:
    East London U.K
    no George looks like he IS going to the toilet !!
     
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  22. jmxw

    jmxw Fab Forum Fan

    Tastes change over time. Especially, John's. As a creative artist, he could be fickle that way.
     
  23. DrBeatle

    DrBeatle The Rock and Roll Chemist

    Location:
    Midwest via Boston
    This is a matter of opinion (i.e. John's vs. everyone else in the world's)
     
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  24. Arnold Grove

    Arnold Grove Senior Member

    Location:
    NYC
    Lewisohn will have his hands full when he tries to figure out the end-game of the Beatles. Here we have a postcard from John and Yoko to Paul and Linda, sent from Denmark in January 1970, when John missed out on the "I Me Mine" sessions. Pretty friendly. If I had to base my opinion on one postcard, I'd say that these two mates (John and Paul) were not facing the death throes of their band.
    [​IMG]
     
  25. BigDanT

    BigDanT Forum Resident

    Location:
    England Lancashire
    :righton:
     
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