Van Halen: Women and Children First (1980) Song by Song

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by GodShifter, Nov 30, 2017.

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  1. YardByrd

    YardByrd rock n roll citizen in a hip hop world

    Location:
    Europe
    @GodShifter did the entire KISS canon song by song... he's the best at it... and agreed, he needs to do all six DLR VH rekkids
     
  2. Tree of Life

    Tree of Life Hysteria

    Location:
    Captiva Island, FL
    COULD THIS BE MAGIC?

    Vamborules hit the nail on the head.....

    Not many bands that I know of could pull off this kind of song on a record...Can you imagine umm let's say Journey or KISS being able to do it? I can't either.

    Van Halen is the fun, partying, beach bum band that we all love, loose and carefree, toking & joking along the way

    Like "Happy Trails", "Ice Cream Man" etc., only VH could pull off this kind of tune and make it work well within the album.

    P.s. I bet Diamond Dave banged Nicolette Larson in the Backroom during breaks! Ha ha!
     
  3. GodShifter

    GodShifter Forum Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Dallas, TX, USA


    IN A SIMPLE RHYME / GROWTH 1980 (E. Van Halen, A. Van Halen, Anthony, Roth) (4:41)

    Dating back to the very early backyard party days of Van Halen, “In a Simple Rhyme” (then called “Simple Rhyme”), is the 9th and final track on the album Women and Children First. The song, with different lyrics, appears on the Warner Brothers demo from 1977 that Gene Simmons produced, but there is also an even older version from the Cherokee Demos (dating around 1974/75).

    As mentioned above, Roth over the years changed up the lyrics significantly as the song developed. It’s actually one of his longer set of lyrics as he’s singing for almost the entire song. “In a Simple Rhyme” is another song on WACF where the background are fairly prominent (which has not been the case for a lot of the songs on this record).

    The song actually has Eddie playing on a 12 string Rickenbacker guitar for most of it (only switching from it for the guitar solo). The original version had a much longer introduction section, but Eddie decided to not use it as he didn’t want the band to be said to be trying to copy Led Zeppelin. The song features some truly intricate and inspired drumming from Alex (listen to what he’s doing on the verses) and growly, melodic bass lines courtesy of Anthony (some of what he does in this song reminds me a bit of Eric Avery’s style from Jane’s Addiction).

    “In a Simple Rhyme” is actually a fairly subdued Van Halen song even though it definitely falls into the category of a rocker. Eddie is playing very involved rhythms (meshing perfectly with his brother) in the left channel but the guitar seems pulled back in the mix and alternates between distorted and clean quite a bit. One of the aspects I really like for song are the well crafted harmony vocals (particularly Michael Anthony’s) that start at 2:10 in the mellow section right before the guitar solo (she made the mountains sing, birds against an icy sky).

    I’ve always liked this song a lot as I find it to be quite melodic, but, at the same time, inserting the right amount of heavy into the mixture. It works well. That said, I have read that it is not a favorite of many Van Halen fans.

    As to the very ending of the song, I thought I’d mention it as well. The heavy, Sabbath oriented chords that are counted off with Alex’s floor tom is a tune called “Growth”. It lasts all of fifteen seconds. On the vinyl it fades out to where you can barely hear it, but on the CD it can be heard quite easily. The idea was to take the song and have it close out WACF and then open the next record, but that never happened (kind of like what Venom did with "At War With Satan" from Black Metal to the next album called, you guessed it, At War With Satan). "Growth" has been played in concert with Roth as the band used it to open their encores. Apparently it was also fleshed out into a longer form with Sammy Hagar on rhythm guitar in the mid 80’s for one show at the Centrum in Worcester, MA. I’ve never heard that version (not even sure audio of it exists).
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2017
  4. GodShifter

    GodShifter Forum Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Dallas, TX, USA


    The demo version from 1977 sessions with Gene Simmons. Notice the changes in the lyrics.
     
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  5. GodShifter

    GodShifter Forum Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Dallas, TX, USA


    I believe this is the version from the Cherokee Demos (but I'm not positive about that; it could be the same as above for all I know).

    The band did perform this one live in 2015, but most of the versions were so bad I decided not to post them.
     
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  6. Combination

    Combination Forum Resident

    Location:
    New Orleans

    Call me crazy, but it is my favorite song on the record. And now I need to put the vinyl on so I can listen for the rain!
     
  7. GodShifter

    GodShifter Forum Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Dallas, TX, USA
    So that's it for the Women and Children First song by song analysis. I hope everyone enjoyed it and (maybe) learned a few things from the thread. It was an absolute pleasure to do it as this album has been a favorite since I bought it way back in 1980. As I stated, I used my original vinyl version for this thread (hadn't probably pulled it out in 30 years or so - at least). It still sounds good. It was like seeing an old friend again after many years :laugh:.

    I'm not really going to try and rank the songs for this one. I just the feel the album works well as a whole and it's damn near perfect. I mean, yeah, I bitched a bit about "Tora! Tora! / Loss of Control" but, in the end, that's just Van Halen being Van Halen. It's part of their unique charm and one of the reasons they're so beloved. Definitely one of my favorite bands ever and has one of my top five favorite guitarists and top five favorite drummers of all-time in the same group. My admiration for the Van Halen brothers (obviously) is almost unparalleled. I love those guys. And who can forget Diamond Dave? One of the BEST frontmen in the business for a time, a talented lyric writer, and an all around funny and intelligent guy. Mike's aces, too.
     
  8. GodShifter

    GodShifter Forum Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Dallas, TX, USA
    I'm not going to call you crazy. A lot of people like the song. I think, for me, even at the elevated age I am now, but I don't always appreciate things that are off the beaten path like I should. I probably have a little bit of autism or something. I'm pretty stubborn about what I like and don't like, but have soften a bit in my old age (heh).
     
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  9. overdrivethree

    overdrivethree Forum Resident

    Always heard "In A Simple Rhyme" as VH doing The Who, and they pulled it off - kind of multi-movement power pop/arena rock.

    Also one of the few times DLR wrote an actual love song and sang it with earnest sincerity. And it's not terrible!
     
  10. GodShifter

    GodShifter Forum Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Dallas, TX, USA
    It is, indeed, my first Van Halen song by song thread. As mentioned, I did a thread covering every single KISS song (plus the four solo albums) which took me almost a year to complete. My original intention was to go forward and do a Van Halen song by song thread (the Roth years) after that one, but I'm unsure of my time these days, so I just cherry picked one album and did it. I still might do it (if someone else doesn't do it first), but really depends on several factors in my personal life to work themselves out to allow me to have the time.
     
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  11. Cheevyjames

    Cheevyjames Forum Resident

    Location:
    Graham, NC
    Could This Be Magic

    This is a great song and really expands what the band was capable of. As if we didn't already know that they could play the fk out of any style, here's another one they master. Eddie's slide playing sounds great here and Dave plays really well too. Vocal harmonies are spot on. Great song.

    In a Simple Rhyme

    I really love the intro and verses, but the chorus doesn't quite work for me. The harmony is quite good on the chorus, though. I love the change to the slow bridge, that's really good. Eddie sounds fantastic (as do Mike and Alex, but esp. Ed) on the solo. Overall I like this song a good bit and it's a fun way to close out the album. "Growth" is pointless.
     
  12. 131east23

    131east23 Person of Interest

    Location:
    gone
    Thanks for the time you are putting into this. It is much appreciated. Thread has a great positive vibe to it.
     
  13. YardByrd

    YardByrd rock n roll citizen in a hip hop world

    Location:
    Europe
    ah, the Centrum... in my backyard and when it opened in the '80s I saw my first British band there (The Animals) and got high for maybe the third or fourth time... I won't dwell on my other teen shenanigans at the Centrum... anyway, back to VH... yes, this closes the album on a strong note... love Eddie's tone, but as I said back in the KISS CoS thread, I'm a sucker for a 12-Rick (my avatar)... never heard the other earlier versions, so will get back after I bend an ear...
     
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  14. Combination

    Combination Forum Resident

    Location:
    New Orleans

    I swear, I never knew Edward even owned a Rickenbacker guitar, much less used one on a record!
     
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  15. ElevatorSkyMovie

    ElevatorSkyMovie Senior Member

    Location:
    Oklahoma
    "You gots womens on yo' mind". Classic.
     
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  16. GodShifter

    GodShifter Forum Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Dallas, TX, USA
    You learn something new every day, eh ;)
     
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  17. GodShifter

    GodShifter Forum Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Dallas, TX, USA
    You're very welcome. Maybe we'll do another one pretty soon. :)
     
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  18. Oliver

    Oliver Bourbon Infused

    Probably my favorite song on the album. Lots of mood changes-most notably for me the exuberance of Dave singing on the electrified intro over Alex's galloping drums straight into the whole band coming in. Great moment for me. Also that same high when Eddie is playing those slashing power chords and then into the solo. Love it.
    The mello melodic parts are great too, great harmony singing.
    I think the only part that bothers me just a tiny bit (and never ruins the song) is that Mike's bass part seems to me like it's under rehearsed. It kind of kicks in and out at weird parts and even the higher parts of the song (right before the solo) which is a great idea comes across just a tiny bit amateurish- maybe even just a hair out of time too? I've had this feeling on other songs on this album too, I think part of it is the way is was recorded. Anyways that is totally nitpicking as like I had mentioned it never really comes close to ruining the song for me and generally I'm one of those guys who has no problem with Mikes bass playing overall on VH albums.

    Another great VH record! Thanks to GodShifter for the thread!
     
  19. pool_of_tears

    pool_of_tears Searching For Simplicity

    Location:
    Midwest
    Show some respect for the dead. That's not even remotely funny, man! :tsk:
     
  20. ian christopher

    ian christopher Argentina (in Spirit)

    Location:
    El Centro
    WAYYYYYY late to this but ...

    can there be any greater heavy rock (bordering on metal, but with just enough R&B influence to make you wonder) tune that "Romeo Delight"?

    Alex Van Halen becomes a drum God on this track, and the dynamic and interplay just keeps improving - VH II had many classic moments, but it all comes together on tracks like RD and Simple Rhyme.
     
  21. Cooks420

    Cooks420 Forum Resident

    Location:
    NY
    Hell to the yeah.
     
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  22. ian christopher

    ian christopher Argentina (in Spirit)

    Location:
    El Centro
    love how the change the chorus melody and structure in succeeding verses in Simple Rhyme ... this shows the wonderful, intuitive, and unscripted Van Halen - an aspect that would be lost as Top 10 successes came to them.

    I can see a bit of awkwardness with Anthony's basslines in the solos section, but at these points EVH is pretty much playing textural chord voicings, so its a good moment for Mikey to rip -- I also sense a "call and response" between DLR's yelps/yells and MA's bass riffings in this solo section (In A SImple Rhyme)
     
  23. GodShifter

    GodShifter Forum Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Dallas, TX, USA
    I wonder if Anthony's bass issues are because the bass sounds like it was run straight through the board? It's extremely dry sounding (as it is with most Van Halen songs), but because he's not playing through actual amplifiers it magnifies the basic nature of what he's doing? I mean, I don't know, maybe he's not running through the board but it sounds like it. As far as it being unrehearsed? Possibly, but this is a song that had been around since the Mammoth days. You'd think he'd have a handle on it, but who knows what went on in Van Halen recording sessions? It seems it was a pretty loose affair a lot of the time. Still, good observations on the bass (I'm a bass player myself and didn't really notice it, but I tend to focus more on the guitar and drums when I listen to Van Halen).
     
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  24. ian christopher

    ian christopher Argentina (in Spirit)

    Location:
    El Centro
    W&CF (overall) is probably the least scripted and most intuitive of all VH recordings.
     
    Last edited: Dec 7, 2017
  25. ian christopher

    ian christopher Argentina (in Spirit)

    Location:
    El Centro
    I am a big defender of the Van Hagar era, but the moment that EVH decided that every moment in a song had to have a hummable melody, VH lost a certain magic that was present on their early records - especially their first 5. Love the bit of cacophony (the musos here likely call it "dissonance"?) that Eddie puts into the solo section on In A Simple Rhyme.
     
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