Star Wars: Episode VIII (The Last Jedi) - SPOILERS POSSIBLE*

This post could've been written in 1999 defending Phantom Menace,

 

The point is, defenders of this film have taken a very shrill and hostile, even condescending tone toward any dissent. It can't be that the film has flaws, no, its that every person who has an issue with it is an old person obsessed with the original trilogy. The hostility present is something I've only seen in ardent defenders of bad movies, like the Hobbit trilogy.

 

So what exactly was wrong with the Jedi? They were wrong in opposing the Dark Side? They should have been more understanding and supportive of those looking for the power to be found in hate?

The fact that they failed to stop the rise of Darth Sidious is mentioned by Luke as a problem. That is only a problem if you believe that the Dark Side is evil.

While Luke is training Rey, he walks away horrified at the fact that she so quickly turns in interest to the Dark Side. That is only a problem if you believe that the Dark Side is evil.

There is no synthesis possible. The idea that some sort of rapprochement is possible between the two sides of the Force is nonsensical from the perspective of the OT.

Luke gave in to fear in trying to kill Kylo Ren. That’s the Dark Side, baby. Devotion to the Light Side didn’t bring this problem upon the galaxy any more than it supported the rise of the Emperor.

 

I think you're taking it way too personally. No one is being hostile.

The Phantom Menace comparison is absurd.

This isn't a film with Jar Jar binks / fart jokes, blindingly obvious green-screen and no interesting story (unless you find the politics story in The Phantom Menace story interesting) with extremely wooden acting. The Last Jedi is a decent / interesting / fun film, and it also made me laugh.

I don't see why you're so wound up with it. I didn't like Attack Of The Clones, but... I accepted I didn't like it, and moved on.

 

It's not a conspiracy when actual hard data shows a huge discrepancy between the unverified RT audience polls and actually verified polling. Read the article.

Plus when you factor in the behavior from the " Dizney murdered Star Wars" crowd for The Force Awakens and even for this one in the days leading up to its release, it's not hard to put 2+2 together and get 4.

I'm NOT saying all negative reviews on RT are all trolls, but when you have one scientific poll where viewers are actually asked as they left the theater what they thought showing an average in the 80s and an unscientific, unverified and unregulated poll where people can post multiple times and turn one vote into 10 via many different identities averaging in the 50's...Well, something is going on.

 

Agree. The Phantom Menace is so deeply flawed that it should never have been released. It’s a disaster. Not just Jar Jar. The plot. The flat “acting”. The poor script. The awful CGI. The dense politics. The toilet humour. This new film will rightly be regarded as a classic.

And it’s doing well, regardless of social media trolling: Star Wars takes $450m on first weekend

This review sums up a lot of what’s great about the film: Star Wars: The Last Jedi review – an explosive thrill-ride of galactic proportions

 

So you think The Phantom Menace is better than Return Of the Jedi?

There's just no taking your opinion seriously now.

 

One thing that I think everyone can agree on; Benecio Del Toro's character was pointless.

 

I'd say there's a strong possibility that there are just as many fake positive reviews as fake negative ones. I noticed yesterday on IMDB, most of the glowing reviews were from before the 14th. Was the film even released to the general public before the 14th?

A lot of this stuff is manipulated and always has been. I remember interning for CEMA back in the 90s and we would regularly send out thousands of cassette singles to various record stores for free so they could sell them well below retail price and bump the numbers on the Billboard chart. I'm sure there's plenty of influence on sites, reviews and perceptions these days and I don't necessarily blame them since it's business for them.

 

Also something else I've noticed elsewhere from a few of the negative opinions. There are some people salty that Rian Johnson dared to reference the prequels. I think there was a lot of irrational wishful thinking that TFA and the sequel trilogy and Disney taking over would mean the Prequels would be henseforth be completely ignored and that eventually Lucasfilm would either officially throw the prequels out of canon and remake them " the right way" or leave the Vader back story vague and undefined again as it once was,like some prefer it to be.

I've seen a few of the negative reviews mention that being a sore point, which actually is quite funny.

Love em or hate em, the Prequels happened and they are now officially part of Star Wars canon and the loop between the Prequels and the sequel has closed.

 

Agreed and I agree with an earlier post comparing him to David Johanson (which is a good thing, imo). He seemed very similar to the character DJ played in Scrooged.

 

No doubt it can cut both ways in terms of things like RT's Audience percentage, but the actual poll where people were actually asked upon leaving the cinema is a different animal all together. It's hard to fake that unless you have audience plants or fabricated results from those taking the poll.

What I'm saying is the people out there pointing to the 56%RT audience rating and deeming that as " proof" that the general audience agrees with their negative sentiments is disengenous. We had one poster earlier who was gleefully using the RT reaction as proof they were right.

 

I think the whole mission to Canto Bight sequence was pointless and could've been left out. And I think a better movie would've emerged. They could've simply had a code breaker amongst the Resistance personnel and been done with that whole tangential storyline. And trimmed the running length of the movie to make it just about right.

As it is, it seems like it only exists to give Finn a purpose and plotline in this film. And to have this film's version of the Mos Eisley cantina. And possibly to have expose some enslaved kids who they could later come back to at the very end of the movie as a little postscript to the main story.

 

Agreed. It was Honestly the only thing that is an actual sore point with me. The only thing that makes the whole side plot bearable were that actors playing Finn and Rose were likable and worked well together. It's similar to the Rathtar sequence in TFA. It was fun, had some interesting moments here and there, but could have been edited down or eliminated all together and no one would have noticed.

 

But it wasn’t written about The Phantom Menace, a film I’m not a fan of. It was written about The Last Jedi.

Using The Phantom Menace as weapon to criticize The Last Jedi is a false equivalency and ranks right down there with using terms like ‘Star Wars in name only.’ It’s too easy and adds absolutely nothing to the conversation. It’s an aversion, a quick duck and cover.

 

I have to say, I found Finn more likable in The Last Jedi than I did In The Force Awakens. I thought he was too clownish in that film.

 

I also would really like it explained to me how this movie, even if it's poorly made, " destroys" existing Star Wars mythology. Does it erase anything that happened in Episode's I through VII? Does it contradict anything that occurs in those movies on a fundamental and not nitpicky level? One could argue it doesn't add all that much new to that mythology, but " ruining" it? You wanna see " ruined" Star Wars mythology? I could point to many examples in the EU in it's last few years.

One complaint I hear a lot is that by not giving Han, Leia and Luke a perfect " happily ever after" ending ruins the original trilogy. I fail to see how. As Luke mentioned, things Were good for a long time, like 20-25 years. Thats a better average than our own world! It's only been like the last 7- 10 years in story that things went tits up again.

 

You know, using financial success as a jab "HA - TAKE THAT" and as "proof" that this film is a classic isn't the best strategy. Phantom Menace, the film you say should never have been released, was a mega-success financially. Mili Vanilli and Vanilla Ice were also massive successes. Box office appeal doesn't really indicate quality or that one side is winning or losing, does it?

 

He didn't say that. "And it's doing well" was just pointing out that it's doing well. A review was also provided as to what's great about the film.

 

Nothing wrong with opposing evil/dark side - it's the noble thing to do (which is what the Jedi tried to do). The problem with the Jedi was that their arrogance blinded them to the many faces of Dark Side evil (arrogance being one of those faces - and you can't see your own face without taking the time to look in the mirror); and their stubborness to strictly adhere to their ancient traditions left them "out of tune" with the living Force. At least that's how I interpret things when I watch them (it's these many layers that keep my love of Star Wars alive!).

The kid in me loves to just watch the big space battles; while the ever-aging me enjoys pondering the more philosophical layers of this Saga - the struggle between Light and Dark within us all, that in turn, affects everything and everyone else. The Last Jedi added some very interesting layers - some that may not reveal themselves fully until after the next Episode.

 

I didn’t say that at all.

I’m going to “unwatch” this thread now as I have only good feelings about the film and don’t really want to argue about its merits. That just spoils it.

 

We're just going to have to agree to disagree. You think it's great -- cool. I don't -- cool.

I think this thread should shut be closed in all honesty. This is a civil war and no one is going to agree, and the defenders are going to just call people who disagree trolls and "bitter clingers" basically. There's no point in debating when two sides have made up their minds

One thing you can't deny is this the most divisive Star Wars film since Sith.

 

I'd say The Force Awakens too. Seems to have been the case for years now.

And tbh, I could see the issues with TFA - too much of a rehash of ANH. It was... okay / alright - not great. It didn't have much rewatchability factor for me.

 

Someone on youtube said it best: Ackbar should have been the charecter left behind on the ship to die the hero's death, not Laura Dern.

 

It might have something to do with the actor who played Ackbar dying in in 2016. The last film he played that character in was The Force Awakens.