Star Wars: Episode VIII (The Last Jedi) - SPOILERS POSSIBLE*

Discussion in 'Visual Arts' started by MLutthans, Nov 10, 2015.

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  1. Squealy

    Squealy Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Vancouver
    I just saw an interview with Rian Johnson where he said that really, he should have had Luke's mechanical hand fall to the ground when he disappeared.
     
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  2. Song4U

    Song4U Senior Member

    Location:
    South Florida
    and because of that he's made us feel that Luke is still ALIVE!! It's ruined everything....:D we want that mechanical hand as proof until then no dice!!
     
  3. Grunge Master

    Grunge Master 8 Bit Enthusiast

    Location:
    Michigan
    There's no dice, either; those disappeared when Kylo picked them up
     
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  4. fishcane

    fishcane Dirt Farmer

    Location:
    Finger Lakes,NY
    Guess you need to be careful what you wish for.... Its weird, it seems that with this dream come true of all these new editions to the universe, i have lost complete interest...
     
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  5. CVernon1985

    CVernon1985 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Canada
    This is such an exaggeration. They all looked fine up to like 10 years ago. Except George was wasting his time with the prequels back then. Now the fact that they're bad movies is what people concentrate on, but they were always first and foremost a pointless, already-told part of the 'saga'.

    They're goodish points because she picked the *worst* reasons. There are still plenty of good reasons to dislike the movie. There is also the semi-strawman 'Luke only thought of killing Kylo for a nanosecond' argument she uses, when most reasonable people that have a problem with the flashback have a problem with him running away *as a result* of those thoughts, or even letting it GET to that point, more than anything else.

    There are so many weird things in this movie. Leia being able to use the force to that extent but still not using it against the enemies and waiting for Luke's ****ed-off butt to come back, Yoda showing up and interacting with the outside world, while by contrast Anakin never showing up even when it was clear Kylo could really use his forceghost in the whole Vader-phase he was going through, etc.

    I'm pretty sure all of them were aware pretty quickly that this would not be about old people. Hamill said plenty of times that although it wasn't his story, that while reading the TFA script, everyone kept mentioning Luke to such an extent, that he thought he would show up sooner. A pretty reasonable expectation I think.
     
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  6. artfromtex

    artfromtex Honky Tonkin' Metal-Head

    Location:
    Fort Worth, TX
  7. delmonaco

    delmonaco Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sofia, Bulgaria
    Ok, let see… in TFA Rey obviously was waiting for something/someone, scratching marks on the wall counting the days. There must be some reason for this, because she doesn’t look desperate or stupid, just doing this in some vague childish hope. Also, she told BB8 that she’s “top secret” (ok, this could be just a joke, but also could be true - we need to know). When accidentally he leaved Jakku, she said many times that she must return, and she was dead serious (again, her character is not shown as stupid and naïve, to be so determined to go back just waiting hopelessly because she is missing someone. There must be some more serious reason for this.

    Also, the worn resistance pilot toy, shown in her home logically was from her childhood, some important memory, not just decoration.

    She also spoke several languages (so even though she lived in isolation on this planet, working as a waste collector in order to survive, she was better educated and more skillful in all areas, compared for example to Luke in the OT, who was a farmer with a family, living a decent normal life, and preparing to attend military academy)

    And of course, her vision, during which she was called by name by the voice of Kenobi and her complicated emotions about the light saber.

    So TFA hinted many times quite obviously that there’s something special, interesting and important about her origins and past, and it’s not out of the blue that so many people expected some development and explanation. You say that there can be an explanation about all this, but what it is? That’s the question.

    It would be very dumb if they scrap altogether all these hints as something irrelevant and unimportant, to stick with the “she’s nobody and her parents were nobody” nonsense, and just to go on without elaborate on all this. She may not be a daughter of any major character, but this doesn’t mean that she’s “nobody” and there’s no an important story about her past.

    Some people said that all this is not important, because Anakin was also "nobody". But there wasn't a movie before episode 1, with hints all over the place that he's something special. Also, his background story and special skills were actually explained (even if people hate this midichlorians thing, this was the explanation about Anakin, something obviously resembling the New Testament - a special child, born by a mother with the help of the Holy Spirit).
     
  8. Jim B.

    Jim B. Senior Member

    Location:
    UK
    The whole waiting thing....it's perfectly natural, she was abandon by her parents as a kid and she has survived believing that one day they will return. Children hold onto the silliest things like this as it's unconditional love. There is nothing to suggest in that that she is anything special. Indeed Maz says to her they aren't coming back and she needs to look to the future. Plus if she was special and left there by someone powerful for a reason why would she be dumped with a scrap dealer with seemingly pretty low morals. No-one that cared about her would do that.

    I think we can discount the prequels as well. Lucas just changed and added things that were never there originally so a lot of it doesn't make sense. There is no way for example that Vader was planned to be Luke's father when the first film was made.
     
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  9. delmonaco

    delmonaco Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sofia, Bulgaria
    That's exactly my point - if she was childish, sentimental and desperate, that's ok, but she was shown as just the opposite - very smart, skillful, independent, with no illusions. Also, why she count the days? Why she is so determined to return and to continue waiting? Usually people do this when they expect something within certain period, not just because they lost someone long ago, hoping that he'll return. And why she's so unconditionally in love with someone who dumped her with a scrap dealer?

    As for her not being special...the whole episode 7 (and episode 8, of course) is showing how special and exceptional she is. Is this because of her background, or for some other reason, or complex of reasons - this wasn't explained, but she is definitely the most special, the main character in the new trilogy. And because nothing was explained about her, and there wasn't any development about her (and actually, not much development about any of the others, presented in TFA), I think this is the main reason so many people to be disappointed. 2 hours and a half of a movie, and we didn't understand anything deeper and further about anyone from the new generation of SW characters.
     
  10. Jim B.

    Jim B. Senior Member

    Location:
    UK
    In all honesty I think you just don't understand people. Emotions are not logical.
     
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  11. delmonaco

    delmonaco Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sofia, Bulgaria
    May be I don't, but that's not the point. Traditionally the Star Wars movies are genre restricted, suitable for kids, so the character's actions and behavior have to be more straight and logical, compared to some experimental psychological-drama festival film, and if some character is controversial, or his actions are not quite logical, this have to be clearly explained. I can understand that some people are enchanted by the fact that the new director is so bold and destructive of the SW 'rules" and traditions, and actually, the rules and traditions of any adventure movie, but this alone doesn't make his achievement worthwhile, IMO. He obviously know how to destroy the rules and to go against anyone's expectations, but I'm afraid that he doesn't have much of a concept beyond this.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2018
  12. jeroemba

    jeroemba Forum Resident

    Location:
    France
    I agree, some of her behaviour in EP VII can let people think that she has been mind tricked by a Jedi.
     
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  13. Quadboy

    Quadboy Forum Resident

    Location:
    Leeds,England
    Was it just a coincidence that the Max Von Sydow [the only link to Luke] character was also on Jakku?...............I tend to think he was her real guardian.
    He knew everything about Kylo and his past.
    We just weren't shown Sydow's background as he was gone after the first real scene.
    I think this character was very important as to what occurred between VI and VII...................and the Jedi training school slaying.
     
  14. Grunge Master

    Grunge Master 8 Bit Enthusiast

    Location:
    Michigan
    And Kylo obviously knew him; "Look how old you've become".
    I kinda want to know what part he played. How and why did he have the map? I like the idea of him being an Obi Wan character, looking after Rey. Of course if that happens, everyone will be in an uproar over that, saying that it's too much like A New Hope.
     
  15. Jim B.

    Jim B. Senior Member

    Location:
    UK
    It was 100% coincidence to provide a plot device, which was BB8 has to flee and she runs into Rey. Think about it logically and they had to have a plot device to get Rey involved so there must be some reason for the 'rebels' to visit Jakku.

    I don't think it's a great plot device as it seems to lucky, but there you are.
     
  16. David Campbell

    David Campbell Forum Resident

    Location:
    Luray, Virginia
    The point I was trying to make earlier is there are a vocal group of people who when they heard " sequel trilogy with appearances from the three original star wars heroes!" Took that to mean " finally! The further adventures of Han, Luke and Leia!" And now that it's clear this is a new story centered on New characters with the original three playing supporting roles ,there is this sense Disney betrayed them because they felt they were promised something that they aren't getting. The problem is, Disney never promised that these movies were the long awaited new adventures of Luke Skywalker and gang. Its not Lucasfilm and Disney's responsibility to give those fans exactly what they want. That is, IF said fans even KNOW what they want. Which I doubt.

    Before The Last Jedi, the complaints were that the new Star Wars movies were too reliant on the past and derivative. Some bitched and moaned that after 30 years Han Solo was still the same smuggler rogue he was in the OT and hadn't shown appreciable character growth just to pander to nostalgia. Too much fan service and not enough bold ideas they said. Star Wars is a dying brand!

    Now the complaint is they aren't derivative enough, they've changed things too much from their head Canon and have divorced the franchise too much from the past and " ruined" their childhoods because Luke Skywalker isn't the same guy we saw at the end of Return of the Jedi. Not enough fan service and too many new ideas we're told. Star Wars is ruined forevah!

    I mean, which is it? It can't be both.

    And yes there are legit gripes to have with the movie. I saw the movie a third time last night. I enjoyed it still but the things that bothered me still do.The canto Bight thing felt extraneous, too many characters and the narrative is disjointed in places. I've said as much. I liked this movie but didn't love it and I wished I loved it, but it certainly didn't ruin my childhood, it doesn't make me hate Star Wars or make me feel lied too or cheated or disrespected because my childhood dreams of seeing Luke in his prime being a badass were not met. It wasn't the worst movie ever or franchise destroying or childhood ruining, nor was it the greatest Star Wars since Empire. It was a good movie overall and merely an Ok Star Wars movie. That's it. And you know what? That's probably what most people that didn't have unrealistic expectations left the theater feeling. That's why it's made 1.3 billion worldwide so far.

    I just think the hyperbolic stuff on both sides( but admittingly more so on the negative side) I'm seeing online is a bit too far, IMO.
     
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  17. Jim B.

    Jim B. Senior Member

    Location:
    UK
    Can you imagine how bad it would be if these were the 'further adventures of Luke, Han and Leia'???

    I mean Carrie couldn't really act anymore, they managed to get enough out of her but anything more would be painful. Mark isn't a great actor - what's he most famous for, Luke and doing the voice for the Joker? He's hardly broken through. He did an ok job in the last film but he isn't strong enough to carry a trilogy. And Harrison looks far to old for this now, his actor is barely competent now.
     
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  18. bferr1

    bferr1 Forum Resident

    Location:
    MA
    The favorite characters from one trilogy have been giving way to rising characters in the next trilogy. Qui-Gon, Obi-Wan and Yoda gave way to Han, Luke and Leia, who now hand off to Rey, Finn and Poe. If there's another trilogy beyond Episode IX, then I expect these new characters to pass the torch yet again. For this reason, I'm glad that Lucasfilm didn't bring us "The Further Adventures of Luke & Co."

    Personally, I went into The Force Awakens with low expectations and was delighted by that movie, which recaptured the spirit of fun adventure that was lacking in the Prequels. It took me a while to warm up to Rogue One because of its shift away from established tone and style, but I can enjoy it for what it is now. And I have tremendous respect for what Rian Johnson did with The Last Jedi, which I consider to be a series disruptor-by-design. I think he was fearless with some of the storytelling decisions, and because of that and his willingness to defy audience expectations, the door is left wide open for a very different third chapter than what we've seen in the past. For a series that didn't have to happen AT ALL, and one that I never expected in a million years once the Prequels wrapped up, I'm very pleased with the results thus far.

    I feel bad that so many so-called fans can't seem to let go of their preconceived notions and just enjoy the ride....
     
  19. David Campbell

    David Campbell Forum Resident

    Location:
    Luray, Virginia
    The only two ways a new trilogy of the classic characters would have worked is if you had done a full CGI film with the OT actors likenesses and voices, or recast everyone. The same people upset about Rey and co. Stealing the spotlight now would have complained about an all CGI movie considering the anger towards the prequels being a lot of CGI, and a recast would have been regarded as sacrilidge.

    The only way forward is new characters. As much as I liked seeing Luke, Han and Leia again, I sometimes wonder if it was a mistake to include those characters. It seemed to set an unrealistic expectation among a vocal part of fandom.
     
  20. Rubber65

    Rubber65 Forum Resident

    I totally agree. I couldn't have said it better myself. Regardless of the "what's good and not good opinions of the new "Disney approach to the movies", they've all been huge hits in the box office, generated tons of money, bridging the old star wars generation together with the new generation. Even the stand alone movies such Rogue one which set the bar for future stand alone star war films, did surprisingly well at the box office. To date, Disney has not yet made an absolute garbage star war movie. Up next is Solo: a Star wars story. I really hope that they didn't drop the ball on this one and that the movie is put together well.
     
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  21. Luke The Drifter

    Luke The Drifter Forum Resident

    Location:
    United States
    I really have no complaint about how much the main three are used, but how they are used.

    Ford wanted one and done, and he had a fine film to go out in. I would have preferred him dying saving someone, instead of using him to sell me Kylo Ren, but not bad.

    Carrie died, so Leia's biggest moments were denied us. She did just fine, save the stupid flying through space scene. Someone suggested they should have had her buried in rubble, and then surprise us with force powers moving the rubble. They also used her to sell us Poe, but not a big deal.

    I think Luke was used very well. Although there is a question of Johnson understanding the character. I also see no point in killing him off. And he was used to sell us Rey.

    As for other classic characters:

    C3p0 - Non-existent
    R2-D2 - Awesome scene in this film
    Chewie - Nothing to do

    The one I thought was completely mishandled:

    Yoda - Love the puppet. I hate that Johnson does not understand the character. I said it above, but Yoda only acts like a joker to test Luke in Empire. His personality for the rest of films is that of a serious master. Having him dance and giggle, "page turners they are not", and hit Luke in the head with a cane is completely out of character for Yoda.
     
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  22. bferr1

    bferr1 Forum Resident

    Location:
    MA
    I thought Han's scene with Ben on the bridge was well done. Han could have gone out heroically in a blaze of glory; instead, he went out as a concerned parent staging an intervention for this troubled son. I don't think anyone could have predicated that.
     
  23. Song4U

    Song4U Senior Member

    Location:
    South Florida
    ^^this exactly
     
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  24. Oatsdad

    Oatsdad Oat, Biscuits, Abbie & Mitzi: Best Dogs Ever

    Location:
    Alexandria VA
    I disagree with that. We may not have gotten specific backstory for the "new characters" - though we do learn that Rey's parents may've been "nobodies" - but those characters do grow and change. We have a better grasp on who they are as they've developed, and we see the formation of new relationships ala Rey and Ren.

    All the lead "new characters" have changed by the end of "TLJ" - they're not the same people they were when the movie started...
     
  25. bluenote

    bluenote Forum Resident

    Location:
    Toronto
    This still doesn't indicate that her parents were anything special. The fact that she was counting the days and had to return back to Jakku just simply indicates that she was/is deeply troubled by her parents leaving her behind on that planet. Also, her holding out hope for them to return means that she can leave the life of a scavenger, at least she hopes it would.

    It's not a fact of "missing someone", it's her parents that abandoned her. The film makes it obvious that this has affected her greatly and is partially why she was hesitant to follow the path of the jedi, as she was holding out hope that her parents would come back. This is also showing her character as flawed, that she wasn't just a tough fighter with no feelings.

    Regarding her languages, I would think that she had to learn these languages as a way to survive, not from any formal education. Luke was a simple farmer, he didn't need to learn these skills. Rey had to, in order to survive.
     
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