Is it just me or Led Zeppelin (or rather half of the band) were simply bad too many times LIVE? *

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by DLeet, Jun 9, 2014.

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  1. rednoise

    rednoise Senior Member

    Location:
    Boston
    I did, several times.

    They were pretty good!
     
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  2. Dr. Funk

    Dr. Funk Vintage Dust

    Location:
    Fort Worth TX
    My post was directed towards a few who were judging LZ's playing live solely on their technical capabilities, or playing their songs "inaccurately" and referring to them as sloppy etc. It's easy to sit in a recliner with headphones on and nitpick every missed note. My point has been that there is so much more that makes a live performance "live". And there is something to be said for actually experiencing a band in the moment. If you don't agree, no problem. But it's not a "strange idea".
     
  3. ohnothimagen

    ohnothimagen "Live music is better!"

    Location:
    Canada
    I've always said that if I were a famous, large scale gigging musician, I would have a "Moby Dick"/"Toad" style drum solo in my set just because I do happen to like drum solos. My version of the "Moby Dick" style drum solo is called "Gonzo". Fifteen minutes would be the limit, though (my recorded version, such as it is, is only five)
    Unfortunately the bastids have You Tube blocked at work so I can't see the video at the moment, but I'm going to take a shot in the dark and guess that you are referring to the "Midnight Moonlight" sequence? Yes, that was a mainstay of "White Summer" when Page brought it out of mothballs in '77-'80.
    I will agree to a certain point...there are off nights and then there are off nights. One could consider, say, the famous April 27 '77 Destroyer gig an 'off night' 'cos Page is a little shaky in places. But generally speaking it's not a bad show, per se, I mean, I certainly wouldn't have been confronting the ticket agents afterward demanding my money back. On the other hand, a show like San Diego, June 19 '77 is definitely an 'off night' because John Bonham was either sick or well out of it- he's constantly in and out of tempo, messing up the beats etc...fourty two years on it's kind of funny to listen to on the audience recording until you realize that 20000 or so people paid good money to witness Led Zeppelin giving a performance with a drummer who had no business being onstage at all that night. Had I have been in San Diego that night I probably would have asked for my money back.

    Mind you, Tempe '77 and Greensboro '75 are usually considered Zeppelin's "worst gigs" (mainly due to Page and Plant having off nights in both cases) but you don't hear anybody booing or shouts of "You guys suck!" on the audience recordings. Or you don't see Dave Lewis reporting in the Concert File book about how "10000 irate Zeppelin fans in Tempe stormed the ticket booths demanding refunds after Zeppelin performed a substandard show". When yer actually at the gig, I reckon, it's easier to get caught up in the moment and either not notice or ignore it if the band is having an off night than it is to analyze a recording of the performance years later in retrospect.
     
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  4. jay.dee

    jay.dee Forum Resident

    Location:
    Barcelona, Spain
    And how about this standard? Is Marc Ribot's live rendition sloppy?

     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2018
  5. Dodoz

    Dodoz Forum Resident

    Location:
    France
    I meant the chorus of this (attempting another link). A (mock?) arabic tune that goes "Ya Mustafa, ya Mustafa...chérie je t'aime, chérie je t'adore" (maybe there's a version sung in English somewhere, I don't know?).



    Note : oh, my bad, I read a little fast. You can't read it because you're at work! I thought it was another issue of a video being blocked in some countries and not others.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2018
  6. Dodoz

    Dodoz Forum Resident

    Location:
    France
    Yes, most people were probably just thrilled to be there even if they noticed flaws...
    Also, even if bootlegs did exist, it's safe to say that the majority of people didn't have much to compare the night they attended with (unless they were fans travelling to several shows).
     
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  7. Dr. Funk

    Dr. Funk Vintage Dust

    Location:
    Fort Worth TX
    My 61 year old neighbor saw Led zeppelin live right here in Fort Worth TX on May 22, 1977. He still talks about it to this day, the energy, the sound, and how damn lucky he was to see one of the greatest rock n roll bands live in his home town. What's interesting, is that I've never heard him complain about Jimmy being sloppy, or Plant not hitting the high notes, or changing their studio songs (God forbid). This is a man who is married to a beautiful woman, has four well adjusted children, has a lucrative business (probably a millionaire several times over), has traveled the world, yet he considers seeing Led Zeppelin live one of the highlights of his life.
     
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  8. jay.dee

    jay.dee Forum Resident

    Location:
    Barcelona, Spain
    Or maybe like Bad Brains? Was their blues jam sloppy too? :)

     
  9. dkmonroe

    dkmonroe A completely self-taught idiot

    Location:
    Atlanta
    My eldest brother, who sadly passed away many years ago, saw Led Zeppelin live in their prime and he always said it was the best concert he'd ever seen, hands down. He said they played for hours and after about the fifth encore Plant announced that they had to quit because they just didn't know any more songs! :laugh:
     
  10. Terrapin Station

    Terrapin Station Master Guns

    Location:
    NYC Man/Joy-Z City
    I feel the same way, but I kind of expect it from most artists now (it was different in the later 60s and throughout most of the 70s), and I try not to "hold it against them," even though what I really want to see is artists who are like Zeppelin, the Dead, Zappa, the Allman Brothers, etc. were live.

    There is a wide variety of reasons that artists choose to do material more or less by rote, just as it was on studio recordings. Sometimes it's because that's what the artist (or the bulk of a band) likes better. Sometimes it's because they're fans of bands who took that approach. Sometimes it's because of audience expectations or demands (and past complaints). Sometimes it is because the musicians in question don't have improvisational skills and don't have the interest and don't want to do the work necessary to come up with/learn different arrangements of the same tunes. As a musician myself, and especially as someone who has worked with many different bands etc. in many different genres (by choice I've taken that route), I've encountered all of these reasons and more, because I'm such a fan of doing things differently live that in any situation where I've had some say, I've always brought that up as a possibility, and even pushed for it a bit. Often I've been outvoted. :shrug:
     
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  11. Terrapin Station

    Terrapin Station Master Guns

    Location:
    NYC Man/Joy-Z City
    I was fortunate enough to see them a few times, including the infamous Tampa 1977 show. That one was even more of a disappointment in that we had to drive about 5 hours (from Miami) to get there.
     
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  12. ribonucleic

    ribonucleic Forum Resident

    Location:
    SLC UT
    It would have been a fun addition to the "Whole Lotta Love" medley. :D
     
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  13. Terrapin Station

    Terrapin Station Master Guns

    Location:
    NYC Man/Joy-Z City
    Maybe I'm weird but a 20-minute plus version of "Well Well Well"--where it's kind of the same as it is on record, just with more repeats, would be sublime in my opinion. Keep in mind that I'm someone who loves "The Devil Glitch". :crazy:

     
  14. jay.dee

    jay.dee Forum Resident

    Location:
    Barcelona, Spain
    But most by them (who do not) were/are not popular as Led Zeppelin and that's why the "sloppy" brigade never turn up to judge them by the note-perfect rendition standards prevalent in the modern popular music culture. If the performer's fanbase are pretty much the same folks as those attending actual gigs, there is no issue with an artist taking the liberty of not following (his/her) studio productions (which are usually not too polished either).
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2018
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  15. Dodoz

    Dodoz Forum Resident

    Location:
    France
    Took me by surprise when I listened to Berlin 1980 :D
    Here. 1:15:16 into this



    But then again, maybe he played it all the time during the White Summer jams, I'm not an expert on live LZ at all...
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2018
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  16. Terrapin Station

    Terrapin Station Master Guns

    Location:
    NYC Man/Joy-Z City
    The "White Summer" stuff in "Black Mountainside" was pretty much lifted directly from Dav(e)y Graham, who was a huge influence on Page. (And if you're not familiar with him, Dav(e)y Graham is very much worth exploring.)

    Here's Graham in the mid 60s performing stuff that Page lifted for that section:



    I'm not someone who has a problem with Zeppelin lifting stuff, by the way (although I wish they would have given appropriate songwriting credits). I think that everything Zeppelin lifted they did at least as well as the source artists, and they often transformed it (though not in this case--it's pretty much verbatim) into something even better in my opinion.

    Oh, and I don't know if Page always put that material in the tune, but normally he did.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2018
  17. marcb

    marcb Senior Member

    Location:
    DC area
    Did the crowd cheer wildly in this dream when your masterpiece was finished and you spontaneously combusted?
     
  18. JPJs Bass Guitar

    JPJs Bass Guitar Forum Resident

    Location:
    Glasgow, UK
    Wonder if Davey Graham (or indeed Bert Jansch) happened to see this Page performance on BBC TV in 1970 ? (Shame about the quality, but it's all there is ...)

     
  19. misteranderson

    misteranderson Forum Resident

    Location:
    englewood, nj
    We agree for the most part. In rock, I'd say Jimmy was as good at improv as anybody not named Hendrix. And even Jimi took risks that didn't always resolve or necessarily take a song to a higher level, but that's what risk is.

    Zep was already doing 90 minute shows less than a year after their first album was recorded. Along with The Dead, the two bands probably played some of the longest gigs of the era, and it was a very expansive era. I've heard all the live Zeppelin that's worth hearing, and I wouldn't want to change anything about their basic approach. Tragedy and near-tragedy cut tours short, and finally ended the band for good.

    As for it being "all peaches" through some point in 1972 or so, it's true. Plant's voice changed, and he wasn't getting it back. They went from strength to strength as a live act 'til then.

    Where can I find Crimson improvising with no destination? Haven't listened to KC in a while and would like to know what you're referring to.
     
  20. jay.dee

    jay.dee Forum Resident

    Location:
    Barcelona, Spain
    Try something from the Larks' Tongues lineup. Guildford, Hull or Bremen dates, all from 1972, released officially by Fripp have a decent sound quality and feature expansive improvisations of that era.

    For more compact playing check Amsterdam '73 (released as "Night Watch") or the '73-74 shows collected in the Great Deceiver box.
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2018
  21. yesstiles

    yesstiles Senior Member

    Sounds like the beginning of "Over The Hills And Far Away."
     
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  22. Tim1954

    Tim1954 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Cincinnati, OH
    Much as I admire him overall and especially as a songwriter when he wasn't stealing, Page probably wouldn't be high on my list of rock guitar improvisers. As just one mainstream example from his peer group, Eric Clapton was a hundred times as skilled an improviser. The fact that Page was faster than Clapton doesn't negate the fact that Clapton had superior intonation and far better control of his musical vocabulary, IMO. Or to compare him to Ritchie Blackmore? Nah.

    "True" to you, but I think it's an overstatement. They were never a consistently "elite" live band, IMO. Some people in retrospect tend to focus on Plant's voice from '72 onward but it's beyond that. Led Zeppelin had some live highs, but it wasn't all on Plant's voice that they developed a reputation for sometimes being much less than the best live act around. And in further "defense" of Plant, while he was never really my type of live performer "visually", it seems to me that he almost carried the band on some of those off-night '77 shows.
     
  23. marcb

    marcb Senior Member

    Location:
    DC area
    I like both for what they are, but disagree that Clapton was a better improvisor, let alone a hundred times better. Clapton is a lot of things - rarely makes mistakes, wonderful phrasing, great intonation and tone (as you said), but as an improvisor he is/was relatively safe and narrow (particularly as the years have progressed and also compared to Page in his prime).

    Some of the nuanced stuff Page tried to pull off on the fly was really hard and creative. Clapton played with more of a safety net.
     
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  24. John Fell

    John Fell Forum Survivor

    Location:
    Undisclosed
    When Clapton was in Cream, Bruce and Baker sometimes tried to make Clapton make mistakes by throwing him curves while playing. I doubt the other guys did that to Page in Led Zeppelin.
     
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  25. marcb

    marcb Senior Member

    Location:
    DC area
    Page managed to do that all on his own...
     
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