Thoughts on Icon PS1 MK2 tube phono stage

Anyone have any experience with this phono stage? I have an opportunity to purchase one at a very decent price. I'm currently using a Moon LP110 into a VPI 299d tube amp. I'm curious what may be the benefit/downfall of using this tube phono stage instead. The Moon sounds good, but I wonder what may be gained by adding a tube phono stage into the mix, instead of the current solid state one. I've been told that this particular piece won't make it sound overwhelmingly lush by the addition of another tube piece in the chain, and that it is pretty open and transparent. Thoughts?

 

I’ve not heard the Ikon phonostage but a friend has an Ikon preamp and it is a very nice preamp. It is not overly lush at all. Open and extended for sure. Hopefully their phonostage is similar. I’m familiar with your Simaudio phono and think it is pretty good value fwiw but you have a very nice system and I can understand wanting to get the most out of it. It would be ideal if you could try it out first. Good luck!

 

I bought an Icon Audio PS2 here on the Forum last summer and greatly enjoy how it sounds. I'd been using the well regarded Lounge Audio LCR mkIII and also a Vincent Pho-8, and while both are very, very good units, especially at their $300 price point, the all tube Icon Audio PS2 was at a whole other level, especially as I paid $400 for this $1,100 when new item.

I had only been using solid state gear until earlier in 2017 I bought an all tube CD player by Lector, the CDP 0.6t. That item was such a stunner I became hooked on the idea of adding tubes in the phono chain, so when the PS2 showed up at such a great price I decided to go for it. I bought a very reasonable pair of vintage RCA grey plates to go along with one Mullard I also bought from the Seller and the combo sounded better than with a pair of new Gold Lions, not that the pair sounded bad at all, just different.

I did run into a problem soon after using it when I began to lose the right channel. It took a couple attempts by a local tech, but in the end he re-soldered all of the connections, he thought the quality of the factory soldering was just poor, and that shipping the unit hadn't done anything. The good news is it's fixed with no problems now, and the very gracious Seller contributed about 70% of the cost of the repair!

 

Thanks for your input, guys. The Icon arrived just moments ago, and I'll hook it up soon and report back. I do have a good window of "demo" time with it, so that helped make my decision easier.

 

And your thoughts Jerry?

 

So; the amp I spoke of above I quickly found out was the "older" edition. I still hooked it up and listened with it for a week or so. I immediately noticed a huge improvement - massive bass, and greater detail throughout (ex: I was hearing strings deep in the mix of Radiohead songs I know well that I had never noticed before...). I was concerned, though, as I had read a few reviews that all echoed a concern for the build and circuitry of this earlier model, and it was noted by other reviewers (and info attached/hyped with the new model) that many revisions/updates/improvements had been made to the newer/current model. I decided I would just feel better spending a little more money to get a new/improved unit. I sent that one back and paid the difference for the new model and have been enjoying that one ever since.

I will say, however, that I do feel the bass is more tame with this new one. Not sure why that would be (I'm new to this gear, so perhaps there's a simple answer someone versed in electronics/tube gear would understand). It still is a big jump over my former Moon unit (no Zappa reference intended ). I think it's maybe just a little more tonally balanced than the sound I was hearing from the older unit. I still hear good, solid bass on some recordings; but it seems to be record specific now, where I felt it was more powerful on nearly all recordings before. The best masterings when played through the old unit would make the back of my spine vibrate when listening - it was almost scary at first. Sometimes I kinda miss that, and wonder if this new unit is shortchanging me sonically somehow, when I'm listening to something and speculating if it would be more robust with the former. But mostly I feel that it's a good, even presentation. Overall I'm very happy with it, and it's a pretty slick looking component (actually there's 2 pieces to it...), too, compared to the old one which was much more boxy and utilitarian in appearance.

 

Thanks for the update Jerry! Very helpful!

 

I’m confused. The VPI 299D has a tubed phono stage.

Edit: Found info explaining that the phono stage is solid state. That’s damned odd given this amp is supposed to mimic a class 100-percent tube design.

 

I thought the 299D is class AB. I do know VPI contracted with VAS to have them built after they heard some Cayin amps. It's basically a Cayin in VPI guise.

 

It is strange indeed. Could you post a link to the info you mention? I swore the gentleman I spoke to (not Harry, but the other individual behind it's creation) had told me it was a tube stage, but that conversation was over a year ago and my memory isn't what it once was.... I've since moved to a Herron phono stage and it's glorious.

 

That was a typo. I was trying to write "mimic a classic tube design."

It was part of a thread on AudioKarma: Any VPI 299D Integrated Amplifier Owners?

Here's the relevant quote. The Steve mentioned is the amp's designer, Steve Leung:

"OK, just off the phone from a great discussion with Steve. He says that, the phono stage is solid state, however it's far from being an after thought and a lot of design and time went into it, including power supply and high quality wiring. It was designed to be very quiet also, so that again suggests you may have something else in your signal path that's causing that hiss MurrayLives because I just don't hear it on mine. I should say that I didn't mention your issues. Steve just volunteered the point about the quietness."

 

Thanks for sharing that - interesting thread to read!

When I purchased my 299D, I was introduced to the (new to me) curious and frustrating issue of subsonic vibration. I called Music Direct (even though I purchased the amp from a fellow member here in the classifieds) as they've always been very helpful to me when I have questions and I buy almost all of my new gear from them. They had me contact someone, who I'm 99% positive was Steve, to help explain the issue to me and offer an explanation/help, etc. He was very nice to speak with, and confidently suggested a cheap high pass filter would cure the issue. That did not work, and I arrived at the understanding that I would have to purchase a $200 Rumble Filter in order to use the 299D with my recently purchased Icon Audio PS1MK2. This was all because I was using and Ortofon 2M Black with the Ikon Audio PS1 MK2 phono stage (which replaced my previous Moon Audio LP110) and I guess they didn't play nice together with the 299D. I called him back a few days later, discouraged and not wanting to spend another $200 to use this amp and/or potentially swapping the PS1 MK2 for some other stage. He told me that I'd be better off even using the Moon for a stage (which eliminated the rumble issue) than to use the built-in phono stage in the 299D. I was surprised and asked him why and he said that they just threw it in there so they could more closely focus on everything else and put more $ toward the rest of the amp. It was just included in the rare, off chance that someone didn't actually already have a separate stage and wanted to have a way to play vinyl, and that it was basically an afterthought. Interesting!

I hope I don't sound like I am throwing this person under the bus - not my intention at all, and again; he was very nice to talk to and was very patient explaining all this to me and I learned a lot. Just a totally different conversation and explanation. Hmmmmmm...

 

So after having to sell my Rogue Audio Ares Magnum back a few months ago to help me survive with my recent unforseen divorce..... I am back in the market for a tube phono pre to replace the Ares Magnum.

I have pretty much got it down to the icon audio ps1 or ps2.. the only reservation I have in pulling the trigger is actual need and performance between the 2....

I am most likely to stay with MM carts for the See-able future. The ps1 handles MC/MM and the ps2 MM only. I'm trying to see if anyone has ever compared the 2 models with MM cartridges?

My point is that I don't want to buy the PS1 if the PS2 is in the same ballpark as the ps1 when running g strictly MM carts... I'd rather use the few hundred bucks to buy vinyl.

So does anyone have any useful info regarding these 2 models?

 

I have the PS2 and love it. I've read a quote from David Shaw at Icon Audio who stated that the MM circuit in the PS1 and PS2 are the same. But the PS1 has an external tubed power supply which will make a big difference with the sound. The OP's PS1 was recently sold here in the classifieds, and I know that the new owner, Slippers-on is quite happy with it. I had long thought about purchasing it, but I have a Lounge Copla Silver step up amp for my moving coil cartridges and am happy with the Lounge-Icon Audio PS 1 combo so I just couldn't justify buying it.

Yesterday I received a vintage Grace F9E cartridge, and am finally listening to the PS1 fed directly by a moving magnet cartridge of great (well deserved) reputation, and I like it even more. Although it's a MM cart, the Grace F9E sounds like a MC cart, and it's overall sonics are even better than the AT-OC9ML/II MC I've most recently had installed, and the AT is a damn good cartridge.

In my PS1 I have a pair of Raytheon 5751 Windmill Getters and one RCA AT7 Blackplate. I think the current PS1 uses three 12AX7 instead. I've also used a pair of Westinghouse 12AX7, great sound from both, but the Raytheon offers a more detailed and nuanced character. The 12AT7 tube doesn't seem to be as critical to the overall sonics of the unit.

 

This is such a hard decision... I was going to order the icon ps2 from analogue seduction in the UK. I've ordered stuff from them before but this time they said I should order it from music direct. When I checked it out it was $2400 as opposed to $1543 in the uk with shipping.

I might just wait for another rogue ares magnum to come along. The ps1 was the only one that seemed like it would have been in the same league as the ares. I shouls be able to get a preowned ares magnum for &1500-1600

 

I have the PS1 MkII. The PS1 MK II has some nice options like the MONO switch and gain that goes up to 72 db. Yes its a pure valve, passive no feed back design, hand wired point to point with no printed circuit boards. Its a very nice, well designed phone amp from the mind of David Shaw. What I really dig about this phono amp is that fact that the signal from the cartridge goes directly to the tubes "without any switches or coupling capacitor's." Mr Shaw, the designer believes the coupling caps and switches would add sonic impurities. Mr Shaw also designed his own transformers which are built into the body of the PS1 MKII. While the gain is adjustable up to 72db, the ohms are fixed at 100. This worried me as I contemplated the purchase. But after read in print about ohm loading from some top notch engineers and gaining knowledge why Mr shaw fixed it and gaining a little bit of smarts about ohm loading from other online sources, my worries where satisfied, so I made the purchase. Ohms loading on carts aren't set for a reason so you can use any cart from 100 ohms up and you will still have a very nice balanced dynamic sound....at least with the PS1 MKII. You know we can't always trust what is said in the streets about certain things, we have to try and gain a little understanding from those who have a high education in what we want to learn. But this topic will always have audio hobbyist on both sides of the fence so to each his own. This is a fantastic phone stage! I was reading one review and I like the way he put it about the PS1 MKII. He said "The Icon can play along side the Modwright (Ph 9.0) and dance with the Allnic H-1202 and the Sutherland DUO, both of which I feel play above their respective price points." Now that's some very good company!

As I've said once before...and I will repeat it here...there is magic when that little signal is transferred straight from the cartridge to the transformer and tubes. And throw in the fact no switches or coupling capacitors in the signal path as Mr. Shaw says, "to add sonic impurities", what you hear is really enjoyable.....the kind of stuff that puts a smile on your face and a tear in your eye. I find the smallest of detail easily audible where as before I never noticed it. I find much much more punch and the tone color or quality is outstanding! The sound is rich! But I must say, I didn't notice the great timbre until I switched out the cheap tubes in the phono amp. And a few weeks later switching out the regulator tubes in the outboard power supply. If any one says changing the regulator tubes do nothing for the sound, they simply are mistaken....once I changed those tubes, I gain much more dynamics. So now that all the tubes are quality tubes I'm left with one amazing phono amp!

 

I was very happy with the PS2 feeding into a line magnetic 518ia. I probably should have kept that rig but I got speakers that needed more power. I paired the phono with a nice step up which is what you are paying for with the ps1. I’m sure there are some gains from the external tube supply but I found it to be very quiet and dynamic. Also the mono switch is awesome if it’s going into an integrated without one.

 

I just ordered a PS2, and now have second thoughts, if I've gone this far, i.e. $1100 @ music direct, if I should go up to the PS2. I only plan to stay with microline low output (3mV) MM Cartridges for a foreseeable future. Don't get me wrong, I have LPSs on other equipment, high-end AC cables, and a PowerConditioner, so I absolutely believe in clean AC Power or batteries; and my concern is I probably can live without some of these things in other parts of my system, as compared to the Power feeding a phono pre-amp, seems more influential or particularly impact full, in a small device generating the line signal signal with RIAA accuracy, that is what the amp and speakers use to create what I listen too. Curious if you still feel, the design of the PS2 is great, and the PS1 could be diminishing returns at its' price point for MM Cartridges?

 

Doesn’t seem like you could go wrong with the PS1 - that looks like a solid unit!

a few thoughts - the onboard step up is one size fits all and you might be better off matching a $1400 dollar step up to a cart of your choice down the road. Also do you need gain on a phono stage - seems extraneous? Perhaps you could source the upgraded power supply for the ps2 unit? Not sure but worth a phone call.

also at 2.5k there are many killer options out there.

 

I just looked and the gain for the Icon SP1 is fixed at 53DB, while for the Sp2 is 46 (current model version). I have seen calculations where ~53 DB is OK for a 3.MV MM cartridge, which is what I have, but the KAB website, discusses keeping gain as low as practical, so that volume and chanel balance can more accurately be balanced by the AMP stage, IE at a higher volume. KAB recommends ~ 41 gain fir 3,0 MV, and a more casual reading would suggest 46 is OK, and while minimize pre-amp induced "hiss." So in summary, it seems Tube pre-amps from what I see, can have a positive effect on allowing for more headroom avoiding clipping; an advantage this forum has taught me of tubes over transistors, but raising the Gain more than you need to defeats some of these advantages. However the PS1 does have a volume knob, so i guess you can dial the output down, which would be good since the PS1 doesn't have selectable gains from what I can see. So maybe in the end the PS1 would work equally well with a 3.mv MM, and not induce extra hiss, if you "tune" the volume by ear. Just wondering if this makes sense, comparing the PS1 to the PS2, for use with MM cartrides for the time being, and opening up future options with other cartridges.

 

Update: 12.13. 130PM EST I talked with MusicDirect this morning and the advisor confirmed that the way to dial in the proper gain on the PS1, is with the volume control according to how the music sounds. So in my case on a PS1, I'll assume 53dB fixed MM gain might be 15% high, so I would start with 3/4 volume or maybe 50% and work my way up. I got more interested in the PS1 as I was able to get a Demo unit, under warranty for 20% off. I appreciate the comments of everybody on this forum; as I've learned so much. The comment that their are many units to choose from in this range is true, but I really like the PS2 I have 'till it's returned, and I'd stick with the line I have, that I believe sounds fantastic, is well made industrial design rather than shop more. I will say, that I read forever, why would anyone pay this much for a phono pre, when in my case, I'm approaching the price of the TT, but when I heard the PS2, for firts time, on some old albums from the 60's and 70's, i was astounded. I didn't;t realize all that was hidden in the grooves. Musicality, staging, timbre and spine tingling bass and vocals in some cases. Also understanding now how a Tube based PS works /transformer, is a new learning experience for myself, I can and will appreciate.

 

Your’re going to love the PS1 MKII. Traditional reasoning goes out the window with this phono amp. Yes it’s fixed with the internal gain as well as 100 OHMs loading. But you can still use 90% of the cartridges out their. I’ve in my cartridge drawer a Denon DL-S1. A very low cartridge @ 0.15mV. There wasn’t any issues with the ICON PS1MKII driving it. You just simply adjust the gain knob on the ICON and your’re set. And no hiss at all…it’s a very quite machine. And with the built in SET, you get all the magic a SET brings, and as an added bonus, you get the organic sound only tubes can bring. It’s a great unit. It’s detailed, warm and has a sort of free flowing of the music to it…huge sound stage. I run her with a Sumiko Starling LOMC and it’s very dynamic and clear and transparent. I love it….I believe you will as well! And don’t worry about what others say why pay so much for a Phono amp. In all probability, if you like the ICON, you are set with the ICON even if you spend more on a new TT.

 

So, I had been trying to undersyand more about exactly what tubes I needed to either swap or have a back-up for the PowerSupply section, and sent a query to Icon, never expecting in a million years to get an answer to my question form David Shaw, Icon's founder himself, In the interest of helping others as I have been helped, I'm pasting in that correspondence:
In résponse to: subject:
Chinese WY1 = 0A2 - WY1 = 0A2
"I’m purchasing a PS1 Phono MKII preamp here in the USA, at MusicDirect, I wish t have backups of my tubes. The 12AX7s are readily available here in the US. How can I purchase these, or can you recommend a good equivalent, I could purchase in the uSA thank you for the Power supply. Apparently these are Voltage Regulator /Rectifier tubes, and I wish to make sure I don’t make a mistake. Thank you, very much.
Icon Audio response:
Hi Chip

Our original PS1 used a FET transistor and Zener diode which have been good, but just occasionally giving up the ghost for no apparent reason.

The MKII using two 150V discharge tubes in series makes it virtually “bullet proof” giving a very stable HT. Although no longer in production the 0A2s were widely used by the military hardly anyone uses them today so there are 1000s around at low prices, US, European, Russian, Chinese.

As there is no heater to burn out they last for 1000s of hours.

0A2 (or wrongly called OA2) have different numbers depending upon Country. You need the 150V type so you get about 300V (not critical). As they are not in signal path sound quality is not (really) affected by type.


The 12AX7/ECC83 is a very popular tube and easy to find. We like the US Electro Harmonix, Tung Sol, Genalex types, preferably gold pin. Personally I would not pay bug money for NOS tubes (but people do!)

Regards

David Shaw.



Icon Audio (UK) Ltd

From me: Thank you, David Shaw!