Peter Frampton "For 55 million streams of, ‘Baby I Love Your Way’, I got $1,700,"

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Tone, Aug 8, 2018.

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  1. Chris DeVoe

    Chris DeVoe RIP Vickie Mapes Williams (aka Equipoise)

    They got in there using the boilerplate language that the original contract covered every means of distribution ever invented until the heat death of the universe.
     
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  2. ostrichfarm

    ostrichfarm Forum Resident

    Location:
    New York
    Well, that's why we have an adversarial system, in which the streaming services, the artists themselves, and the record labels can all have representation (if the contract allows for it). One of the reasons we hear so many complaints from artists is that they've often ended up with legal representatives who turned out not to have their best interests at heart, for a variety of reasons (self-interest, undisclosed connections to the adversary).

    Should we expect artists to know how to tell the difference between a good rep and a bad one? Between a good contract and a bad one? (If someone gets conned, is it always their fault?)

    In any event, that's why they seek redress in courts -- and some of the bad ones have indeed gotten in deep trouble when the courts have found they betrayed their duty, fiduciary or otherwise, to an artist. And as has been pointed out, "unconscionable" isn't just a pejorative opinion, but a legal term that can void a contract in whole or part.

    I think we all acknowledge that it can be a dog-eat-dog world. But sometimes it occurs to me that these discussions show a divide between people who embrace that fact -- who think it should be that way (every man for himself), and that if you're deceived or poorly-treated, it's your own fault for not reading the fine print and you damn well better not whine about it -- vs. people who reject it, think we can do better, and think the amount of information and pitfalls in the world is so huge that no one can be blamed for not seeing every trap set for them.
     
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  3. lazydawg58

    lazydawg58 Know enough to know how much I don't know

    Location:
    Lillington NC
    I've taught 8th grade for the last 31 years. I became a teacher because I wanted to work with kids, contribute positively to society, make a difference. So should I be expected to make next to nothing because I teach? Like musicians I have little leverage when it comes to contracts. When offered one my options have been take it or leave it. Having an attorney look it over would be a waste of time. While it isn't a perfect comparison it is close enough to point out that power between parties are not equal and doing something at least partly for the love of it isn't an excuse for screwing over someone.
     
  4. Chris DeVoe

    Chris DeVoe RIP Vickie Mapes Williams (aka Equipoise)

    They hardly need to negotiate, they just bring it up at the next board meeting. Every one of the streaming companies (with the possible exception of Google Play Music,) is partially owned by record companies.
     
  5. ostrichfarm

    ostrichfarm Forum Resident

    Location:
    New York
    Heh, oh lordy. I didn't know that. "Heads I win, tails you lose!"
     
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  6. eflatminor

    eflatminor Forum Resident

    Location:
    Nevada
    Would that be the boilerplate language that the artist voluntarily signed? Why yes it would!

    If you want to exert control over a future form of distribution yet to be invented, you can do that in a contract. I've seen it many times. If you choose to not negotiate for such matters, then you live with the contract you signed. Pretty simple.
     
  7. lazydawg58

    lazydawg58 Know enough to know how much I don't know

    Location:
    Lillington NC
    I doubt his house is worth $40million.
     
  8. Chris DeVoe

    Chris DeVoe RIP Vickie Mapes Williams (aka Equipoise)

    I'm trying to think of something polite to say about this...and failing.
     
  9. lazydawg58

    lazydawg58 Know enough to know how much I don't know

    Location:
    Lillington NC
    My point is that Crosby doesn't have a net worth anywhere near $40 million. He needs the money, just I assume as Joan Crowford needed it in 1970.
     
  10. eflatminor

    eflatminor Forum Resident

    Location:
    Nevada
    Then think of something logical. Reason is your best bet, always.
     
  11. walrus

    walrus Staring into nothing

    Location:
    Nashville
    Def Leppard must've done this...I remember also AC/DC and Metallica were holdouts for awhile with both digital sales and then streaming.

    But you have to be an artist on that level to haggle over the terms of your contract. If you're an up-and-comer or minor act on a big label, you either played their game or starved back then.
     
  12. Chris DeVoe

    Chris DeVoe RIP Vickie Mapes Williams (aka Equipoise)

    You refuse to acknowledge the power imbalance that exists in any sort of contract negotiation between giant record corporation with hundreds of lawyers in the legal department, and a single artist or band with the one lawyer that they can afford. Maybe things work perfectly in Randland where you live, but in the real world contract negotiations are often unequal.
     
  13. ostrichfarm

    ostrichfarm Forum Resident

    Location:
    New York
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  14. TonyCzar

    TonyCzar Forum Resident

    Location:
    PhIladelphia, PA
    'Member that time a Congressional staffer (party: RIAA) nearly succeeded slipping last-minute language into law that would have converted all recorded music into "works for hire"?

    Good times, good times.
     
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  15. lazydawg58

    lazydawg58 Know enough to know how much I don't know

    Location:
    Lillington NC
    First driving a really nice car isn't the same as having $40 million. It is the same as the old, welfare recipient driving a Cadillac red herring. Second wouldn't a traffic accident settlement be between his insurance company and the person hit, rather then him personally? He isn't at risk of sleeping on the street, but he isn't rolling in the money either. I think what many don't get is that his income stream is most likely drying up so he is paying bills, spending money based on his savings and investments. It can be depleted fairly quickly.
     
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  16. TonyCzar

    TonyCzar Forum Resident

    Location:
    PhIladelphia, PA
    It's a common scenario in Hollywood, music, and sportsball that some top-tier superstars don't necessarily get that things aren't always going to be "this way", and the tiny, incremental downward slips they make economically don't feel like much individually as they are happening. So they end up hawking Pepsi, signing baseballs, or whatever it is that David Crosby does for money. Rants about how they had $40million of this or $100million of that are moot if the money is gone.

    Also, I found the litany of Crosby's illnesses ... off topic.
     
    Last edited: Aug 10, 2018
  17. Chris DeVoe

    Chris DeVoe RIP Vickie Mapes Williams (aka Equipoise)

    A moment of silence please for the late Bob Mercer, by all reports one of the few truly decent man in the record industry. Bob signed Kate Bush:

    Mercer insisted recording expenses would not be deducted from Bush's advance on the grounds that such a practice was "immoral", a concept not normally acknowledged within the industry.
    ...
    EMI offered a four-year contract paying an initial non-removable advance of £3000, with an additional £500 for publishing with options at the end of the second and third year. This last detail was crucial. It enabled Bush to renegotiate her contract from a position of strength following the huge success of "Wuthering Heights" and The Kick Inside, with the result that she was able to retain ownership of all recordings, only leasing them to EMI for agreed periods of time. This move allied to a stubborn adherence on her unflinching vision gave her real power and allowed her to retain tight control of her music throughout her career as well as protecting her image and her legacy.

    "It was renegotiated very early on so she owned her own music" recalls Brian Southall. "That was unheard of for an act that early on in their career. To their credit, when she started selling records they rewarded her, Bob was very fair in that respect, he was a good man. It was unusual for EMI to do a license deal. Many other acts wanted similar deals and they were turned down."​
     
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  18. Riverwest

    Riverwest Forum Resident

    Location:
    North Carolina

    AFAIK Crosby has to carry a bond and not car insurance. He had to pay that settlement
    out of his pocket. I don't really care whether he has money or not - just wanted to point
    out that wealth and celebrities are usually well hidden.
     
  19. lazydawg58

    lazydawg58 Know enough to know how much I don't know

    Location:
    Lillington NC
    The law firm would have to have the resources for a long fight. With all due respect I get the idea that you've lived a fairly privileged life.
     
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  20. eflatminor

    eflatminor Forum Resident

    Location:
    Nevada
    Contract negotiations are always unequal; that is the nature of advocating for one's own interests. If equality of outcome where guaranteed, there would be no need for a contract. Both parties had equal opportunity to negotiate in their interests. No one was forced to sign. No one was forced, period.

    The question is, what is to be done when two parties enter into a perfectly legal contract that ends up being more beneficial to one party over the other? This happens every day and every day the party that fared less well can't go back and renegotiate a valid agreement.

    Yet, that is what you're implying should happen, which would pretty much end tort law as we know it.

    According to your 'logic', if I sell a car for $5000 and the buyer turns around and sells that same car to a buyer willing to pay more, I ought to be able to get more cash from my buyer, after the fact.

    That is insane.
     
  21. Chris DeVoe

    Chris DeVoe RIP Vickie Mapes Williams (aka Equipoise)

    The one Courtney Love memorably described as "a little pisher"? The one who's only job was to look for typing errors? The one who immediately went to work for the RIAA?
     
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  22. Lyedecker

    Lyedecker Forum Resident

    Location:
    somewhere
    Anyway, all of this interbusiness politics would make me steer clear of signing with a major label in this day and age.
     
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  23. eflatminor

    eflatminor Forum Resident

    Location:
    Nevada
    One, you're 100% wrong about my personal life. My father never graduated the 6th grade and I was on my own at age 17, working full time+. At one point in my life, I found myself homeless. Dead wrong there pal.

    More importantly, that is entirely irrelevant. You have committed a logical fallacy of attacking me instead of my argument.

    That said, there are PLENTY of law firms that will take on a long fight. Lawyers charge by the hour. They love long fights.

    The point is, there are plenty of lawyers that will take on a fight if there is a decent chance of winning a payout. We don't see that happening here, which ought to tell you something about the nature and validity of the contracts.
     
  24. lazydawg58

    lazydawg58 Know enough to know how much I don't know

    Location:
    Lillington NC
    I don't know what AFAIK is but he carried a bond instead of insurance so he paid out of pocket anything over and above what his set aside bond was I guess you are saying. Crosby obviously hasn't historically been good with his money, if he had he'd probably be worth the $40 million some random website says he is, so I'm doubtful he can at the same time be that good at hiding his wealth. Remember he did spring for an extremely overpriced car when he could have bought an Accord or Camry that would work just as well or better. Probably not a smart financial move in and of itself and pretty typical of bad financial decisions made by people in general.
     
  25. Chris DeVoe

    Chris DeVoe RIP Vickie Mapes Williams (aka Equipoise)

    I found the article. For all the grief she gets Courtney Love actually has a pretty decent brain. From the Salon article Courtney Love Does The Math from 2000:

    Last November, a Congressional aide named Mitch Glazier, with the support of the RIAA, added a "technical amendment" to a bill that defined recorded music as "works for hire" under the 1978 Copyright Act.

    He did this after all the hearings on the bill were over. By the time artists found out about the change, it was too late. The bill was on its way to the White House for the president's signature.​

    That subtle change in copyright law will add billions of dollars to record company bank accounts over the next few years -- billions of dollars that rightfully should have been paid to artists. A "work for hire" is now owned in perpetuity by the record company.
    These are the sort of people we're talking about. Someone like Bob Mercer is the rare exception.
     
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