I love the M&P's, but even if you don't- let's face it: their story is pretty unique, even if it's 50% hearsay and urban legend. Makes Fleetwood Mac's story sound tame by comparison. I think it would make a great movie. Anyone wanna chip in to produce?
Check out Jill's Monterey Pop Festival photos:http://www.rockandrollgallery.com/jill_gibson.html Nice!
Ah, Norton's junk, I consider it malware itself. When I do jobs on people's home pc's, the first step in fixing the computer is removing Norton or McAffee, because one of the two are always on there, and they're simply terrible programs, slow computers to a fraction of their potential and cause nothing but problems and false readings. If you don't believe me that the site is safe and really want to hear them, give me an email address and I'll send the files to you, but I assure you, you're not going to get a virus from listening to the tracks on that site. Oh, and if anybody didn't catch the link before, here's my higher quality re-creation of the "Crashon..." album cover. Thing took me forever in Photoshop CS4 to get it to look right!
I couldn't get the second clip to play without registering, but that's okay, 'cause you've sold me with that first clip. I don't really hear any Michelle on there with the stuff isolated like that, and there's several lines with a different female voice (which I'd assume matches the second clip you uploaded). On a related note, I just dug out my copy of 16 Greatest Hits and forgot how radical that alternate mix of "Look Through My Window" is on there (Steve used, at the very least, alternates of "Dedicated," and "My Girl" too). Vocals are so much more prominent -- even not isolated -- that one can hear a few of the bum notes in the song. Such an amazing song though. Easily in my top three by the band. FWIW, I finally got to hear the session snippet of "I Can't Wait" on the box, and Michelle isn't on it. While it's really just John and Cass working on their vocal part, it's still interesting that she isn't audible anywhere (Denny isn't either for that matter as I seem to recall). "I Can't Wait," on casual listening, was one of the tracks that I personally thought might be a Jill-er. "John" - any more isolations from the album proper? Perhaps, one of the tracks where I thought it was a "Michelle"?
Yeah, the version from Steve's disc is the one I used for that. I've always loved that "I Can't Wait" outtake and John's stuttering in the beginning! Have you ever heard the others? They're all from the A Gathering of Flowers 2-LP set. A long outtake from "Once Was a Time I Thought" that does in fact have Michelle on it. A little from "Do You Wanna Dance" with John instructing Cass on how to sing the "Oh, oh-oh baby..." part. A snippet from "Did You Ever Want to Cry" with a hilarious line from Denny and some orchestra folk talking at the overdubs for "Dancing Bear" ("Sid keeps coming in on top of me!"). Good stuff, and several interviews and other little things as well, all topped off by a great LP sized 14 page booklet with some photos I've never seen anywhere else and lyrics on the inside covers of the box. I've got some more vocal extractions coming, but unfortunately Spring Break's over and I have to be up for Piano class in six hours. They'll be up soon, and I'll look around for other places to host them as well.
Yeah, I've got "Gathering" packed away somewhere. I was a huge M&P fan growing up and managed to secure nearly everything (vinyl reissues and comps, etc.) on vinyl. Though, I probably haven't listened to it in 25 years. I assume some of that same Do You Wanna Dance/Did You Ever Want To Cry session stuff is on the CD box as well? There's a separate track for that.
Here's "Even If I Could", still on imeem for now... http://www.imeem.com/people/wmwoWbG/music/viX9l93m/even-if-i-could-vocalsmp3/
Now, that one still sounds like Michelle to me. How she sounds when she sings in her light, feathery soprano voice (the doubled "oos" & some of the verse lines and reply answer lines with Cass). Or, at the very least, nothing that stands out as definitive to sway me the other way. All IMHO, of course. What makes it so difficult is that when her (or whoever) and Cass are not doing harmony third intervals, they're often doubling in unison, and they're all swamped in that trademark, cavernous wall of sound. Another all-time favorite track of mine. Check out the mono mix too - with the missing answer lines! Any other opinions?
I had the pleasure of meeting and talking to Denny(charming soul) in the lobby of the Village theater prior to his evenings performance of his delightful yet sad Mamas & Papas story & music show -Dream a little dream- Wish i knew then of the Michelle/Jill recording controversies....I would have asked him...
Seems on the 2 disc Rhino comp from several years ago they mention in the liner notes Jill sang on "I Saw Her Again" and I do believe there are photos of both 2nd lp covers... aw heck, lemme go look... yes, on page 6 of disc 2 of "Creeque Alley" there's the 2 record covers... it's on MCA, not Rhino... Jill says she's on those 10 tracks. She must be. The one she can't remember is "Once Was a Time...." wasn't that the bside to "Look Thru My Window"? Seems "Dancing In The Street" was also a Bside.
The "stripped in" record cover is, unfortunately, old news and doesn't really tell us anything, and unless I'm missing it, there's no mention of Jill singing on "I Saw Her Again" anywhere in the two booklets - not that it isn't possible. I'm looking at it right now. As far Jill saying she's on those 10 tracks, I don't think anyone's questioning that she *sang* on ten tracks, just whether or not they all survived to release. If we're going to take her at face value, we can't be so quick to dismiss Lou, John, or Hal Blaine...can we? Or, ignore what we may hear in listening (though of course that's entirely subjective). I also realize that there *may* be agendas on both sides -- both financial and artistic components -- that may cloud the truth. Memories may fade as well. Also, "JohnMusicBox's" recording technique observation is interesting. Furthermore, the exact recording and release dates of "I Saw Her Again" are paramount in helping solve that one. I've seen June listed (as in the noted Creeque Alley booklet), and I've seen July. From past M&P history, there was usually also a fair amount of space between recording and release. So, that can't be discounted either. I'm not sure if they ever "rush released" anything. Going by the Cashbox charts, I found a number 45 chart position for the song on July 2, with one week already on the charts. So, my guess would be a release in the third or fourth week of June - assuming it charted immediately. Apparently, Michelle was fired on June 4th, and Jill was hired *around* June 14th - if those dates are to be believed. So, the time frame tightness would be a red flag to me. The worst thing we could all do is turn speculation, or he said-she said, into fact. There's enough of that on this board already. Regardless, I'll be fascinated how this plays out either way. I truly look forward to as much real info as possible. I'll still love the album with whoever is doing what...lol.
Okay, here's a few more bits of info. -At this point it seems that it's hard to take the word of anyone as fact. Lou and the group, after Michelle got back in, I believe made an effort to not let it be known that Jill sang on the record, and that could affect their memories of the situation, not to mention chemical factors. Blaine was a friend of Jan Berry's and was pissed that she was all of the sudden with Lou right after Jan's accident and so doesn't seem to like Jill much based on interviews I've read, and I don't find it incredibly likely that he would have been present during vocal recording sessions anyway, so I'd take his word with yet another grain of salt. -Lou does mention in the book "Go Where You Wanna Go: The Oral History of the Mamas and the Papas" that "We recorded Jill on six songs...maybe "Trip, Stumble and Fall," that sort of comes to mind." Not the voice of someone who seems to have a very clear recollection of things, but I'd say it's evidence at the very least that Jill's on "Trip, Stumble and Fall", which I had already thought. -"I Saw Her Again" was released in June according to all sources I have, but that could mean June 30th for all we know, which would not have been un-doable I think, depending on exactly when Jill joined. Look at "San Francisco", if John's story about that is accurate, they showed the song to Lou who wanted to get it recorded right away. John says "And we went in the studio the next day, I think, and recorded it, which was a Tuesday. And by Friday it was on the radio and by Monday it was a hit." -Bones Howe says in GWYWG, "...Lou was under a lot of pressure to get the album finished because the first one was such a big hit." If there was pressure to hurry up and get the album out, it seems unlikely that they would spend a ton of time going back and re-recording stuff with Michelle when they already had a finished product on their hands. -A very interesting part from the book... JILL GIBSON: Except for two songs on the album, "The Mamas & The Papas," I sang the entire second album. That would be 10 out of the 12 songs. I didn't sing "Dancing in the Street." MICHELLE PHILLIPS: I had done vocals several of the songs prior to my getting fired, and then they went in and re-recorded her...so I think that's very possible. There's no way to know who sang on what, because we both sang on all the parts, and it was up to Bones and Lou and John what was on the final mix. And they had a lot to choose from! When you listen to the second album...listen to it...because I swear I don't have any idea who's singing on it. There are times when I don't know if I'm singing on it, or if Cass is, and we had very different, distinctive voices. I would love to know what they are, and I'm not disputing any of it. I would take anybody's word, because I really don't know..." -An article in KRLA Beat, late summer 1966, in a preview of the album (with the title listed as "Crashon Screamon Singon All Fall Down") reported that "Although final decisions had not been made as we went to press, tentative plans called for a total of 14 tracks - something which is almost never done." Wonder what the other two tracks were supposed to be? I guess candidates would be "Look Through My Window", "Glad to Be Unhappy" and "Sing for Your Supper", but who knows... Oh, and an interesting pic here...
I was able to get some more info on "I Saw Her Again." That 7/2/66 Cashbox charting was actually the *first* week of release (not the second). Furthermore, it also entered the Billboard charts on 7/2/66. So, that might push it back a wee tad. But, the other thing to consider is the black and white promo film they shot for the single with Michelle. Personally, I think that might have been done before she left and not after her return when they were already gearing up for the next single release, and "I Saw Her Again" was already on its chart descent (i.e. already in the 40's by late August). So, I'm leaning toward Michelle on that one. Plus, I still think I hear her on the "no...no's" before the break. Did that film ever air on any shows like Bandstand or Where The Action Is? That might help a little too.
I just found out that the "I Saw Her Again" promo film aired on Top Of The Pops on August 18, 1966. The question is: When did Michelle return (I have seen late August listed)? Obviously, they would have had to done editing and post of the film after shooting as well. The only way this would *seem* to work in Jill's favor, is if Michelle returned in the first week of August, second at the latest. And that's really cutting it tight. Otherwise, I would have a hard time believing that the film *wasn't* shot (and the song recorded) before she left. Yet, it's still possible - but only if everything falls into place. I've got to believe this film ran *somewhere* on US television as well. I just haven't found it yet.
I'll just add - no airings of the film on those shows from what I've found so far. I've checked all their appearances.
Just received another email from Jill... "Hi Chris, I listened to the songs. Some are obvious, like Strange Young Girls... is me. I remember doing Trip, Stumble and Fall, I Saw Her Again Last Night, & Look Through My Window, and I can hear my voice on them. Once Was A Time I Thought is Michelle. Even If I Could is a hard one to hear because the male voices are so prominent and the female voices are so blended. I just remember at the time knowing I sang 10 of the 12 songs and Dancing In The Street was one I didn't sing. Probably the other one had to be Once There Was A Time. I did all the rest. I hope this helps. Jill"
"John" Can you ask her about the promo film? And, possibly, why the dates may not add up? Does she remember exactly when she was let go? (and maybe "My Heart Stood Still." I'm curious to hear her response.)
Found Jill's solo version of "It's As Easy As 1, 2, 3" http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l19dna8MAVo&feature=channel_page
Interesting. In some places (i.e. on the words "one-two-three") she does sound a bit like her. In other places, not at all. Though, I guess a double-tracked female voice could be hard to differentiate for quite a few vocalists - especially in the context of a dense mix!
