Dave Clark 5 Live

You did not dig as deeply as you think. While the Rock Relic does tend to be overly enthusiastic in his support of Ron, Ron recorded some successful country albums in the seventies. One was done at the urging of Columbia and Johnny Cash's management (recorded as Clifford James) You are free to believe what you wish but there are resources much closer to the band than I who do not dispute his claims. There was a time when people denied No Time To Lose was a knock off of Twist & Shout. Turns out NTTL only exists because Clark was beaten to the punch by Brian Poole & the Tremeloes after he recorded Twist & Shout. NTTL is the backing instrumental track to that DC5 version of Twist & Shout - which I have heard - with new lyrics written by Ron to save the studio time and money spent on Twist & Shout.

Your skepticism is somewhat understandable - you do not know me nor do you know Ron. I'm just laying out the tale as I know and believe it to be.

 

Napolean Solo?

 

I'm suprised no one has mentioned the song "Sometimes", which, while it wasnt a single, is one of the better songs in the DC5 catalog. Lots of confusion over exactly who wrote it.

 

OK, but define "successful." I worked extensively in country radio in the first half of the 1970s, and consider myself pretty knowledgeable about the country music of this era. I had never heard of Ron Ryan or Clifford James until last night. I have never played a record by either on the air, and have never held a record by either in my hand despite haunting used record stores (most definitely including their country sections) for years.

Did anything he released (album or single) chart? (I can check for charting singles when I get home tonight, but if you know anything in the meantime....) What kind of sales figures did his releases garner?

Yes, I'm familiar with this story, and don't dispute that Ron Ryan co-wrote some songs for the DC 5 in their early days. The question is whether he indeed wrote "Anyway You Want It" and "Because."

Understood, and I hope you also understand that I'm merely expressing the same skepticism I would under these circumstances if anyone were involved. Nothing personal against you, Ron or anyone else.


FWIW, I have spoken personally with an individual who held down a respectable government job here in Youngstown and who swore up and down he wrote America's "I Need You," as well as one or two other very well-known songs (this was years ago, and I've forgotten what the others were, but you would recognize them instantly).

Another person who hailed from Gnadenhutten, Ohio steadfastly maintained to me that he was the composer of "Hey, Little Cobra" by The Rip Chords.

I realize this doesn't prove anything in particular about this case...other than there are those individuals willing to make claims that are countered by other evidence.

In this case, Dave Clark states flatly (in the same Max Weinberg book I quoted earlier) that he is the sole composer of "Because." Again, I'm not here to defend him by any means...we have other clear reasons to look askance at Clark.

Still, it amazes me that he would put himself in a position to repeatedly tell bald-faced lies to a respected and well-known musician for a book he knew would see worldwide publication. Why not simply decline the interview?

 

OK, I'm back to report to the Defenders of the Truth. from my screening of the Ready Steady Go Special Editions last night.
The RSG DC5 clips are lip-synchs.
And, I have a copy of that Max Weinberg drummer book with the interview of Dave. Before we accept each of the Man's statements as gospel, let's engage in a little healthy skepticism. For example, as to his claim that he broke up the group in 1970 (1) to become an actor; and (2) so they could go out on top:
1. Watch Catch Us If You Can/Having a Wild Weekend. The guy gives new meaning to the word "wooden."
2. Check the charts. After 1966, the DC5's records totally stiffed in the US, as the group veered from solid rock to dinner music. 5x5 hit 199 on the Billboard charts; You Got What It Takes hit 149. Everybody Knows didn't chart (think Rick, Denis, Lenny and Dave played on that one?). Epic didn't even bother releasing the later albums that came out in England. After 1967, no single charted in the US.
I take nothing away from what Dave and friends created in the 60s, but let's not be blinded in the fog of fandom as to what really went on.

 

Correction: 5X5 hit 119 (I bought it).
Sorry.

 

Thanks for your input. At the time of the concert, and for the next 26 years, I was not familiar with I'll Be Yours My Love. However, I was finally able to identify that track in 1993 when it appeared on the Glad All Over Again CD.

Charlie

 

We will never know exactly how things were done unless someone is allowed access to paperwork, raw studio tapes etc. and that is probably not going to happen.

Think about how much we know about the Beatles work because people were allowed to study the details of what was done.

I would love multiple books and newly released recordings about and from the Dave Clark Five but it's not going to happen. First they are basically being forgotten due to the passage of time and their recordings being unavailable. Second, it's all controlled by one person who has no apparent interest in his history beyond it's ability to make money. Third, the death of Mike Smith has severed that thread of information. I don't think anyone can tell his story as well as he could. Fourth, Rick and Lenny haven't made any noise about this for almost 40 years and probably aren't going to. It's almost a dead subject unless someone with some pull and interest does some deep digging.

 

I'm always all for healthy skepticism. I can't speak for anyone else, but at no time have I "accept[ed] each of the Man's statements as gospel." I have merely presented them as one more element out of all we're spreading on the table for evaluation.

I'm at work and don't have the Weinberg book in front of me, but I don't believe Clark makes either one of these claims. In the passage I quoted, he states that he wanted to become an actor but was pursuing his acting studies while still attempting to tour and record with the group. He found it difficult to do both, and this, coupled with him simply tiring of touring and not getting the enjoyment out of it that he once did, led to his decision to bring the DC5 to an end. Do you find something in this series of statements to be less than truthful?

And where does Clark say "I broke up the group so we could go out on top"?

What part of these statements by Clark didn't you understand?

And how does his phrase "when things slowed down" square with your contention that Clark has stated that he broke up the DC5 so that they could "go out on top"?

All true, though the DC5 fared somewhat better on the charts in the UK and elsewhere post-1967. But what's your point? Plenty of other artists who did well during the true "British Invasion" found their records stiffing along about 1967 and beyond. How does any of this information run counter to Clark's statements?

Nor should we be blinded by sentiments that quite obviously run in the opposite direction. I'm all for a balanced assessment of all events -- are you with me?

 

No confusion at all - Ron Ryan wrote it. In fact his wife constantly teases him that she prefers it to Because. So do I. It was released by Oliver Reed and tanked. There is a version recorded by Ron and his group The Walkers that he used to show the song to Dave. I may still have a photo of the Reed single

http://www.rock-talk.us/songs/Sometimes.mp3

 

Actually a large part of the story is available. There's a DC5 chronicler in the UK that has most of the pieces in place and was in close contact with Mike, Denis, Rick, Lenny, Bobby Graham and others in the DC5 realm. Check out http://dc5bitsandpieces.com

 

Interesting thread: http://www.voy.com/174078/5790.html

 

I'm familiar with both of the links listed above.

The bitsandpieces.com link does have a lot of information but not the detailed information about who did what, who really wrote what or any details about the recordings that I was talking about in my previous post. So no I don't think the story is out there at all.

Look at the subject of this thread, are there any live videos or recordings of the DC5. Nobody has come up with any examples that are available. No we don't know the story.

 

I posted Come Home from a 66 concert earlier but until DC changes (never gonna happen) it won't get any better than that - re B&P - one of the principles has the info on the band

 

Thanks for posting Come Home. Do you have anymore from that tape?

 

Sorry - Ron's country work was in the UK - admittedly not the same as here. I didn't say he was a raging success but he made a decent living. He also founded a band called The Riot Squad and gave Mitch Mitchell his big break. He didn't learn from his DC5 mistakes though - and had issues with Larry Page. The bass player from the Walkers was also an original member of the Riot Squad but he and Ron left over creative differences with the bands directioin. As to Clark declining interviews, first RE the Weinberg book - he was not particularly cooperative. As to the others - contracts were signed stating what the 4 guys could and could not say when the band split. When Mike Smith toured with his new band even he was forbidden from referencing anything other than he was once the lead singer for the band. Ron has done a recent radio interview in the UK, and another rock chronicler has discussed him in a reecent book. The person that ran Mike Smith's website up until his death listed Ron as co author of Because, In fairness, Mike changed one word and did the intro. Give me the right became give me the chance. Chuck Hinson, the Rock Relic runs several blogs - no forums that I am aware of. I have what I'm sure you would consider an obscure forum. To the best of my knowledge the most complete chronicler of the DC5 (other than DC) is John Briggs. I've known him for years.

Any Way was the last song Ron wrote for the DC5. When Ron and DC fell out, DC forbade the rest of the band from associating with Ron. The guys did as they were told - they had regular weekly incomes to protect.

 

Nothing worth hearing - the quality is awful. Here's a sample from the Philly show - I'll see what else I can put up.

http://www.rock-talk.us/songs/DoYouLoveMe.wma

 

That is what we in DC5 land call the yellow board - LOL - and yes that is an interesting thread - JB is John Briggs - nobody but DC himself knows more about the real story. Ron posts there as well as on my board - which began as a splinter board from an earlier DC5 board. The faithful were very displeased when a guy named John Derbas got the initial info about session players and most did not believe him. He posts on that board as Termite Johnny. He was proven correct. JB is close to Len Davidson, friends with Bobby Graham and has extensive interviews with associates of the DC5, and knew Mike, Denis and knows Rick. He also knows the DC5's photographer - Bruce Fleming and has extensively interviewed John Mackswith - the engineer after Adrian Kerridge.

 

Thanks. Despite the bad quality it answers what has been a major question: could Dave Clark play the drums? Clearly the answer is yes. He is duplicating the drumming on the record and keeping a solid beat.

 

I agree, the DC5 never grew past that successful formula, and parts of their 66-7 albums sound like they could have been eaisly recorded in 1964-5.

Little nods to USA garage rock, big ballads and pop-psych here and there..and then bubblegum. They were getting tired, while the best UK bands were already way past the "beat boom" and experimenting with psychedelia.

 

Any video/audio surface from DC5 perfroming live on NME Pollwinners?

 

Here's a posting from the dreaded Yellow Board that sheds some light on this:

There is a magician named the Amazing Randi (James Randi) who offers a one-million-dollar prize to anyone who can show, under proper observing conditions, evidence of any paranormal, supernatural, or occult power or event. If I had a million dollars I would offer it to anyone who can produce a video of any fully live performance of the Dave Clark Five. There is only one filmed performance that I am aware of where they played live (1964 New Musical Express Poll winners Concert) however Mr. Clark had managed to expunge the performance from the film.

I find this rather curious. Maybe Dave didn't want to confuse record buyers, etc., etc.

 

Where did the circulated video of nearly all of that 64 show come from? Just wondering how DC had power to keep it from view. I know some of the 66 show had some acts shown on TV that aren't circulating.

 

Just speculating here (thought I'd throw that in), but, just as Dave was nobody's fool when he dealt with EMI and retained the rights to the masters, I suspect the DC5's contract to play the 1964 NME Poll Winners' show nixed the distribution of the group's performance in video or audio form, much like many groups at Monterey or Woodstock did years later. Once again, ever the businessman, Dave was ahead of the curve.

 

I've never heard of acts keeping/owning tv appearances from the 60's. Their other TV appearances have surfaced. Was the 64 NME video rebroadcast on TV or was it just a collector to collector internal leak? Plus, wouldn't DC5 be on the same master videotape as the other acts?

Closest thing I can think of is the weird exclusion clause the Beach Boys had in the US for the TAMI show.