The Musical "Decline" of Keith Moon

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Jayce, Jul 10, 2009.

  1. Driver 8

    Driver 8 Senior Member

    Did he practice in the early days? Prior to joining to the Who? Or did he just sit down at the kit and become "Keith Moon"?
     
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  2. jwoverho

    jwoverho Licensed Drug Dealer

    Location:
    Mobile, AL USA
    Of course he practiced in the early days- it was in later years that he only played when it was time to get ready to tour or record.

    I'm sure there are some of Keith's critics who would say he probably NEVER practiced.
     
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  3. Clarkophile

    Clarkophile Through the Morning, Through the Night

    Location:
    Oakville, ON
    AFAIK, before he left his beach house in Malibu to come back to England to record Who Are You, Keith hadn't played the drums since the last night of the last North American tour, which was 21 October, 1976---Moon's last gig before a paying audience (at Maple Leaf Gardens here in Toronto).

    It should be noted that this decline was not absolute or inexorable. He was still capable of moments of sheer brilliance. But he would soon get lazy, and resort to lengthy, predictable rolls over that endless series of tubs. Listen to 'My Wife' from Swansea to see what I'm on about.

    The less said about Kilburn the better. Talk about a heartbreaker.
     
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  4. czeskleba

    czeskleba Senior Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    I'm not sure how much he practiced in the early days, but the Who was constantly gigging so that kept his skills up even if he didn't practice outside band rehearsals. From 1965 to 71 or so the Who were touring pretty much nonstop. It was only in the 70's that they started taking extended breaks from touring and recording, resulting in Moon taking extended breaks from touching a drumstick. I've read that when sessions for By Numbers started, Moon essentially had to relearn how to play the drums because it had been a year since he'd drummed. Same thing before Who Are You, except that he was never able to fully get his skills up to speed for that one.

    I myself hear a decline as early as Quadrophenia. All the things Cheepnik describes are there, just not to the extent they were on By Numbers and Who are You. I'm also not a drummer so I can't describe exactly what I hear, but he seems more plodding (relative to his earlier work, mind you) and less inventive and energetic. I'm not saying the drumming on Quad is bad by any means, but to my ears it's not up to the standard of the Tommy years.
     
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  5. I don't hear a decline at all. Just like Townshend's guitar playing changed over the years, so to did Keith's drumming style. Sure, if he was doing some substance abuse while on tour his playing suffered (as did Pete's) but a musician should, IMO, keep changing and developing. To my ears, he did just that.

    Just listen to the drums on the title track of WHO ARE YOU. Amazing. And the Keith Moon circa 1966 would never have thought to play like that.
     
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  6. davers

    davers Forum Resident

    There's a lot of mention of Quadrophenia here...does anyone else still get goose bumps by Moon's drumming on "The Real Me"? Talking about propelling a song!

    As a non-drummer, I don't blatently think about the decline until I listen "Who Are You", for various reasons as described in other posts.

    Regarding the '76 tour, I recently heard a live tape from one of the Seattle dates and the entire band sounded really great. Based on that tape, I can understand Entwistle's complimentary comments about that tour, Moon's drumming included.
     
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  7. Jayce

    Jayce Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    USA
    Someone referred the lower tuning of Keith's drums in the later years, implying that it may have created a more lumbering, "slower" sound in the listener's ears. Is it also possible that the recorded sound of the later years affected our hearing of his work? That, somehow, the more lo-fi work of earlier years, by virtue of the actual sound, may have had some kind of effect on our listening experience that lent itself to the Moon Magic?

    I am not an audiophile or a sound professional, so I may be talking out of my rear end; however, I have always found the sound of "By Numbers" and "Who are You" to be completely different than any other Moon on record -- much more bottom-oriented and less crisp.

    Entwistle once complained that Moon's drumming always sounded like "biscuit tins," but I do not think he was referring to the later recordings. Ironically, these later recordings, though "better" sounding, IMO lack the power of the earlier Moon. Perhaps it's just the songs, the arrangements, or whatever, but...

    While it may be a chicken/egg thing, perhaps the actual sound of Moon's kit on these recordings affect my/our perception of his playing? Does anyone else experience this, too? Just curious...
     
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  8. That's a really good point; the lo-fi-ness of the 1960's recordings definitely color the sound of the drums.

    Also, IIRC, Keith's drums in the early years were much shallower in physical depth than the drums he used in later years (so I don't think it was lower tuning, but just that the bigger the drum, the lower it sounds). Premier Drums had some really non-standard drum shell sizes compared to other brans like Ludwig and Slingerland pre-1971 or so.
     
  9. czeskleba

    czeskleba Senior Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    I'm surprised anyone would take the position that there wasn't a decline. On Who Are You and the Shepperton gig it is painfully obvious. It's well documented that Keith was unable to play at all when the Who are You sessions started, and was barely able to scrape together competent performances for most of the album. What he does come up with does have enough of the old Moon feel to be passable, but with the exception of the title song it is far far below his playing in the 60's. And even Who are You the song is below his best work. I don't know how anyone could listen to the Shepperton version of Baba O'Riley and claim his playing did not decline.
     
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  10. Like I mentioned, when there was substance abuse going on, his playing suffered. This is true for concerts as well as when he wasn't sober in the studio. But as a drummer, I don't think his playing declined per se but rather he just couldn't drum when stoned/drunk/etc.
     
  11. johnny33

    johnny33 New Member

    Location:
    usa
    I'm not sure I would define Keith as having great timing as in keeping time. What he did is play lead drum and create some crazy incredible fills.
     
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  12. czeskleba

    czeskleba Senior Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    I don't think you can put all the blame on substance abuse. He was drinking and drugging just as much in the late 60's/early 70's as he did later, yet he managed to play great then. And there were times in 1977-78 when he stopped drinking for a few days, but it's not like he could suddenly play like his old self again.
     
  13. Chris M

    Chris M Senior Member In Memoriam

    Keith was pretty coked up at Shepperton. I got the impression he really knew he could no longer hack it and did a bunch of blow in an effort to get him self together. I don't think he was drunk all Shepperton.
     
  14. dotwacky

    dotwacky Forum Resident

    Location:
    milwaukee, wi
    I think, record-wise, he never topped Who's Next. That was his absolute peak for me. Quadrophenia, By Numbers and Who Are You all followed long sabbaticals, never the greatest recipe for top-notch playing, especially for someone as undisciplined as Keith. When they were on proper tours, I really feel that he never played badly. I'm only going by recordings I've heard, naturally.
     
  15. Pdog

    Pdog Forum Resident

    Location:
    Austin
    his professionalism and his health both suffered as a result of his drinking... I don't think he lost his abilty as a whole, he just was inconsistent... so yes, a decline... a warning to future rock n' rollers of the excess of the lifestyle. If, and I use it hypotheticaly, Keith had gotten sober or at least slowed down... he would've played well late into life. The delines in musicanship are usually fingers and voices. Drummers seem to last long and bounce back well too... for the most part.
     
  16. jwoverho

    jwoverho Licensed Drug Dealer

    Location:
    Mobile, AL USA
    Another of music's great tragedies; there may have been more technically proficient drummers and better timekeepers, but rock'n'roll drumming is really divided into "before Moon" and "after Moon."
     
  17. Ere

    Ere Senior Member

    Location:
    The Silver Spring
    It's not like there was a steady or uniform decline to the end. He was playing very well at some of the late '75 gigs, but did sound like he was laboring to keep up a year later - and then playing quite well in the studio, at least for the title cut from WAY.

    I'm not convinced that his larger kit was part of the problem - certainly not in the studio; one listen to the song 'Quadrophenia' or 'Bell Boy' undercuts that argument, IMO.
     
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  18. paulg61

    paulg61 Senior Member

    Location:
    CT
    To me, he reached his absolute pinacle on "Quadrophenia" - If you want a very funny quick read on Moonie - check out "Full Moon" by Dougla butler (his former Driver & PIC) Hell, even if half the book is BS its amazxing this guy even made it to what was it - 31?
     
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  19. 3rd Uncle Bob

    3rd Uncle Bob Forum Resident

    Bruford's plimsouls "Moon go home"

    Peter Banks - "What's wrong with Keith Moon? He's one of my favourite drummers!"
    Bill Bruford - "He's not a drummer, he just hits things!"

    Close to the Edge: The Story of Yes

    Now who was it that said Moon played lead drums?
     
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  20. Rupe33

    Rupe33 Senior Member

    Location:
    Maryland
    While I think on record Keith's drumming is brilliant to the end, there's one of the stories in either the Dave Marsh book or in "The Who: Maximum R&B" by Richard Barnes that has haunted me is this -

    Sometime in 1978 or '79, Doug Sandom, their pre-Keith drummer in The Detours met up with Entwistle at some point and had John sign one of his albums. John's state of mind was evident in the autograph he'd signed: "Dougie, where's your kit? For F---'s sake, we're desperate." Yargh. With John seemingly Keith's biggest booster (or at least conspirator!) in the band, it shows how dire the situation was.

    That '77 Kilburn show that came out on DVD shows the whole band in a pretty wretched state.
     
  21. Well Keith died in Sept. 1978 so if it was after that in '78 or '79, he was referring to Kenny Jones.
     
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  22. GerryO

    GerryO Senior Member

    Location:
    Bodega Bay, CA
  23. keifspoon

    keifspoon Senior Member

    Location:
    New Jersey, USA
    Taking The Who off the road for long periods after the '71 tour also had a big affect on his drumming. Even as he declined, if you notice his best shows were always at the end of tours like in '73 and '76. I know it's a big if, but with better health (which we know he at least tried) his drumming would of returned. I never got why Pete took the band off the road for almost 2 years, then Moon dies and all of a sudden their touring more then they've had in years. Similar situation with John, he waited 2 decades for Pete to write for The Who again. He passes, and their back in the studio in less then 2 years making new music without him.
     
  24. Jayce

    Jayce Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    USA
    Among those who see a decline, the consensus seems to point the finger at the lifestyle and lack of roadwork combination.

    Assuming that the prevailing wisdom -- that his overall work started to decline after "Quadrophenia," what do you think are high points on "By Numbers" and "Who are You"? Of course, demos and unreleased work also qualify.

    I see "How Many Friends" and "In an Hand or a Face" as particularly noteworthy, as well as "However Much I Booze" from "By Numbers."

    I also quite like the demo of "Empty Glass," which I understand is an overdub that he and John did onto Pete's original.

    Even at Kilburn, I like "My Wife." I have never heard any 1975 or 1976 live work, although there are some --particularly Entwistle -- who call 1976 the peak of the band's ensemble. Tough to imagine that these later years could match the '69-70 work, but...

    Looking forward to any opinions.
     
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  25. shokhead

    shokhead Head shok and you still don't what it is. HA!

    Location:
    SoCal, Long Beach
    3 years between The Who by Numbers 1975 and Who Are You 1978. Moon had way to much time to self destruck.
     

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