Question about tweaks for a VPI Classic sourced based system

Morning folks,

I've been playing with various tweaks in my system since adding my VPI classic TT to the mix. Currently the table has a VPI/SS Zephyr (not II) > PS Audio GCPH > Marantz 7701 (CD input) > Parasound 2205a > Martin Logan Vistas.

The one thing I have noticed is with this existing setup the sound just seems kind of flat, not at all what I expected. I was hoping for more "pop" especially with the quality the new source.

I've tried realigning the cartridge using the supplied jig/Fozometer. VTF is set to 2.0g Loading is set to 47k and gain is at 48.

Could this be a cartridge issue? Need a different phono pre? I'm open to suggestions. Even ordered some new cables from Morrow (MA3 to go from pre to pre and PH4 for the TT to phono pre.

 

Should I be looking more at a cartridge change at this point or phono pre? Is there tweaks that need to be done to the Marantz pre?

I have been thinking of swapping out the cart for a Dynavector cart and P75. Also the Rogue Ares or Manley Steelhead seem like great phono pres too.

I have some cash to throw at this to make it right, just don't want to waste it. I'd really like to see a magical change from a cable swap but not really expecting a drastic change from just that.

 

I recently added a Dynavector 20x2L along w/the P-75MKIII phono and it was a huge upgrade for my 1986 Linn. More detail from top to bottom and very quiet.

 

What are you using for a pre amp/volume control, the phono stage? I'm running a Classic with a Zephyr II and it's anything but flat. Even tho it may seem counterintuitive play around with the gain some. Sometimes less can be more.

Before buying a new phono stage or cartridge I'd try to have a friend bring a phono stage over just to see how much of a difference it makes (or getting an in home demo). It can help to point you in the right direction before spending money blindly. Last year I bought a new cartridge when I was having gain issues and it turned out that the phono stage was the culprit.

 

For volume I've tried different ways. Using the GCPH and also using the Marantz 7701. I found no real difference between the two. Maybe a bit less noise using the marantz to increase the signal. I noticed using the GCPH past 3 o'clock started increasing the noise floor (not bad mind you). Normally I keep the GCPH around 12 and don't bother with it past that point.

I've never "borrowed/auditioned" anything from my local dealer I frequent. Might have to see what his thoughts on that are.

 

Have you had those speakers in your system for a while and did they sound more lively with prior sources?

 

Actually, why don't you discuss this with him? If you don't like his recommendations or whatever you can then post them. I always try to support the local guy, if possible. One final word of advice, I would set the table up per VPI instructions, they are excellent albeit you may have to read them a number of times to understand the approach. Then I would set the Zephyr up Soundsmiths instructions. After that I would look at the preamp, I'm using a CJ PV5 and it works great. Finally, keep at it, with a logical and methodical approach. A properly setup Classic makes great needle drops. Also, dibs on the Zephyr, if you decide to move away from it.

M~

 

A good dealer will point you in the right direction. A really good dealer will let you try a few combinations of changes to your system before you buy them

 

Have you tried different cartridge loading, particularly with capacitance?

 

I'm going to reset up everything on the TT this weekend from scratch. See if that helps.

As for the loading, the only options I have on the GCPH are 100/500/1k/47k. A MI cart. should be set to 47k (like a MM).

 

47k should be about right. I wonder if you may have too much gain for the Zephyr. That could make it sound flat. My Zephyr II sounds best with 40 or 44 dB of gain, and seems to lose something above that. I'd redo the setup and if it still sounds flat try to get someone to bring another phono stage over with less gain. The Zephyr should be a great match for your tone arm, but it may not be for the rest of your system.

 

Do you have the manual, yeah I know it's a stupid question. But if you don't I have it.

M~

 

I have Morrow Ph 4 and the MA 2 running to my preamp. They are nice cables.

Phono pre is the Hagerman Cornet 2 with a variety of NOS tubes. Superb for hi level output carts. His new Cornet3 just came out and is half the price at $300 (with modern tubes).

 

I don't think the setup is off. About the only thing I'm missing to verify against a means of measuring (yes, I'm not into the eyeball method of tuning a TT - Foz/dig scale/levels are all used in the process) is the VTA. I've thought of getting one of the VTA blocks to measure (but the $80 seems very steep for just a block of acrylic and some lines on it).

 

1. I eyeball and listen. I have a special crappy record that I use for setup purposes.
2. Get a lined 3X5 card and use it to check your VTA.

M~

 

$80 is definitely too much! I've used a 3"x5" card like Macster suggested. It's sounding like you may have a synergy issue...you could try another cartridge or phono stage or replace both like you had suggested in the original post.

 

This is what I would suggest. There are reasonably priced phono preamps with switches or internal movable jumpers where you can change settings and listen. A little more or little less result stance can turn "blah" into "bloom" or "zing"!

 

I found that the VTF @ 2.0 grams was too heavy for my Classic 1/Zephyr. I lightened it up to 1.5 and the Bass and upper end both came to the party. Seems like the Zephyr is very picky about set-up, but once you find it, it's all good.

 

That's really light to use with that cartridge. Peter has the spec's listed at 1.8 to 2.2g Guess it wouldn't hurt to try it out like that.

 

I suggest that you send an e-mail to Paul McGowen of PS Audio. Explain your problem/issue to him. He is a very helful personal who goes out of hsm may to support customers. He may have ideas related to the GCPH.

 

My Zephyr specs are 1.6-2.0 I tried the spec settings first for quite a while and then starting adjusting lighter. I have the VTA at just a tad bit tail low, that could be what's making a difference also, regardless, the lighter the setting the fuller the sound.

 

Well that is easy enough to try given I have a CI installed. I'll give that a shot tonight. Would be nice to have audio bliss with no more outlay. RSD is coming up and that's going to drain the account some. I'm going to try again and get the latest DMB (not holding my breath though).

 

Well... Just goes to show never trust anyone with setup of your TT. Check everything!

I've been having issues with my VPI Classic where the sound just wasn't there. Flat, congested, not something expected from such a nice source. I checked the cables, phono pre settings (also changing them), azimuth (also with a fozgo), vtf with a digital scale.

The store I bought it from is a high end one not far from my house and even went out there to see how it was setup. Last night I had some time to kill so found the boxes and decided to double check the cartridge alignment with the jig. The stylus was not hitting the dot in the middle, it was actually an entire line back. So loosened it up, readjusted, reset vtf/vta, broke out the test record and fozgo.

Putting on a copy of Pink Floyd Meddle - BY THE BEARD OF ZEUS!!! What an amazing difference. All of the depth is there, amazing. Both sides of that. Then Neil Young live at the cellar door - same results. That's the sound I was looking for. This was about the point the child came downstairs to find her father with tears of joy in his eyes. Caress of Steel and Fairwell to Kings (I liked Xanadu so much I listened to it twice).

The point being is never trust anyone with your setup - even someone that was doing it for years and years. Learn what is involved and don't be afraid to double and triple check. Or even try minute adjustments. The only thing I can think of is that when he tightened down the cartridge screws that it moved some when he was doing it.

I can't wait to see what else I can tweak out of this TT.

 

I bet you thought at first that we were out of our minds with our suggestions. It's good to see that you got it fixed on the cheap.

Here are some more cheap tweaks for the Classic.

1. Set your Azimuth physically, by measuring the distance from the record to the top of the headshell (for lack of a better term) adjust till the measurement is the same on both sides. It may or may not make a difference from your Fozo meter. Either way it's free.

2. Make sure that you anti skate is correct and that you have a nice smooth curve in your armtube to junction box wiring like the one pictured here.

3. Make sure that your set screws are snug.

4. Make sure that your belt is clean and is riding correctly on the platter and the motor pulley.

5. Never let someone adjust your cartridge if you don't have to.

M~

 

Good to hear, The Zephyr will produce in spades, once you get it the "sweet spot" Now, you will be able to hear exactly what that Ares will bring to the table