Explain Pono to me

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by samurai, Apr 12, 2014.

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  1. dkmonroe

    dkmonroe A completely self-taught idiot

    Location:
    Atlanta
    That you can put your own music on Pono? Well, yes, that's what their site says. Why are you so skeptical of that claim?

    Cut and pasted from the Pono site:

    "CAN I PLAY DIGITAL MUSIC FILES I ALREADY OWN ON MY PONOPLAYER?
    Yes, you can and it will probably sound better on the PonoPlayer than you've ever heard it.

    The PonoPlayer is designed to play PonoMusic with stunning clarity. However, the player can play almost any kind of music track including FLAC, ALAC, mp3, WAV, AIFF, AAC (unprotected).

    What this really means is the PonoPlayer can play all your digital music, and all of it will sound great."


    Some of you guys really need to do some elementary research before getting your skeptic on.
     
  2. rjp

    rjp Senior Member

    Location:
    Ohio
    this is the first i've heard that you can record CD's on it and it improves the sound! if that is true, and if you can plug it into a car unit, then i may change may whole outlook on it.

    will one be able to then take music off of a pono and put it on a computer or CD-R?

    will it be that versatile?
     
  3. Schoolmaster Bones

    Schoolmaster Bones Poe's Lawyer

    Location:
    ‎The Midwest
    They already are - it's called SACD.

    I think the real question is why people don't care about high-res.
     
  4. Ham Sandwich

    Ham Sandwich Senior Member

    Location:
    Sherwood, OR, USA
    I'm sure of that. Here's what the Kickstarter page says:
    Pono files from the PonoMusic store are FLAC files. No DRM. Regular FLAC files. You'll be able to play them on anything that can play FLAC. For iDevices you could manually convert the FLAC files to ALAC.

    edit: whoops, I see I'm 22 minutes late with that answer (I was making coffee while doing the reply).
     
  5. Ken_McAlinden

    Ken_McAlinden MichiGort Staff

    Location:
    Livonia, MI
    All they are saying is that their device can play most digital formats and that its DAC and analog audio circuitry are designed to reproduce sound better than most other portable consumer devices. If you plug the output into a crappy car system, it will still sound like a crappy car system. If you plug it into a car audio system good enough to expose the limitations of most portable digital audio devices, they are saying it will sound better.
     
  6. Synthfreek

    Synthfreek I’m a ray of sunshine & bastion of positivity

    I think you are a little confused. How else are you going to put music on your Pono without a computer? You don't "record" CDs directly onto it. You will transfer the ripped music from your computer to the Pono so the music will already be on the computer.
     
  7. Alice Wonder

    Alice Wonder Active Member

    Location:
    Redding, CA
    Add random noise above 25kHz - it would pass the test. Easy to do and no one could hear it was random. Maybe it could be figured out with visual examination... maybe.

    And such a test would fail anything recorded and mastered at 96 kHz but that had a lowpass filter of 24 kHz during record.
     
    Vidiot likes this.
  8. dkmonroe

    dkmonroe A completely self-taught idiot

    Location:
    Atlanta
    It's just a FLAC player, hopefully with a really good DAC. So if you can burn FLAC files to CD-R, then you can burn Pono-bought FLAC files to CD-R. And I didn't say "you can record CD's on it and it improves the sound", whatever that means, I said you can rip your CD's to FLAC, just like you'd do for a Sansa or any other portable device that plays FLAC and put them on a Pono player. And Pono claims that they will "sound better", probably because they think that the Pono player has an especially good DAC. And I'm also reasonably certain that you could plug a Pono player into a car unit with an AUX jack if you have one, again, just like any other portable music player.

    Really, I'm perplexed at how desperate people seem to be to misunderstand this product. It's a portable music player. It plays a bunch of popular formats. It's supposedly got really good-sounding audio technology. You can buy their hi-res FLAC files for big bucks or not, your choice. How difficult is this to understand?
     
  9. Apesbrain

    Apesbrain Forum Resident

    Location:
    East Coast, USA
    [​IMG]

    Pono (Hawaiian for "righteousness") is the trademark given to an upcoming "high-resolution" portable audio player and online music store. Its major backer and spokesperson is Neil Young -- the sexagenarian rocker -- who for a long time has been critical of the sound of digital music:

    When you hear my song now
    You only get five percent
    You used to get it all

    - "Driftin' Back" from Psychedelic Pill (2012)

    Young's claim is that Pono sounds as near as is possible today to a studio master and that the auditory difference vs. lesser digital music is immediately obvious.

    The player itself may be a bit cumbersome in appearance but comes with a true "audiophile" pedigree having in part been engineered by Ayre Acoustics. Its internal DAC is capable of decoding a wide range of digital audio file formats including so-called "hi-res" 24-bit FLAC files with sample rates up to 192kHz. It will play everything from MP3 to CD rips to hi-res downloads. Due to its proprietary electronics it is claimed that any file it plays -- even lowly MP3 -- will sound better than that same file played on a more pedestrian player. Listening is via 3.5mm stereo analog jack to headphones or to an external amplified playback system (e.g. hifi or powered speakers). The Pono player does not have a digital output nor is it capable of any sort of recording. The player has 64GB of internal storage and one SDHC slot which ships with a 64GB card. The total "out of the box" 128GB capacity is large by today's portable player standards and equivalent to about 75 albums in 24/192 FLAC. It can be expanded by swapping out other SD cards or by replacing the card with larger sizes that may be available in the future.

    The Pono online store -- www.ponomusic.com -- is a bit more of an unknown at this time. Press releases indicate that deals exist with a number of music labels to offer their catalog in hi-res format at prices ranging from $15 to $25. In a model very similar to iTunes, Pono will offer a Windows or OSX music management application that will provide access to the online store, organize your music file library, and facilitate uploading files to the player. Pono downloads are DRM-free meaning that these files will also be playable on any other software or hardware digital music player that supports their format. Non-DRM downloads from other online music stores -- such as iTunes, HDtracks, Amazon, Bandcamp, eMusic, Google Play, etc. -- will also be uploadable and playable on the Pono player.

    Aside from its higher visibility there is nothing truly new about Pono. Hi-res portable audio players are currently available from Astell & Kern (iRiver) and FiiO. Hi-res downloads have been available for some time from HDtracks and others. Pono does, however, for the first time bring both hi-res player and online store together into one branded "eco-system". This should enable more effective marketing to consumers as well as open its claims to more extensive and transparent testing which will benefit all of us.

    Because respected portable audio players are already available for a fraction of its cost, justification of Pono's $399 retail price will be an individual decision. The science of digital audio dictates that there is no benefit to hi-res playback of music, yet some people claim to hear one and prefer it. There are many factors that contribute to the perceived "quality" of recorded music among which are the care given to the production of the original master and the listener's hearing acuity. Also at play are the "expectation bias" of using -- and showing your friends -- such a "cutting edge" listening system. Only you can be the judge of whether Pono (available in October) or a similar product is of personal value.

    More information:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pono_(digital_music_service)
     
  10. Alice Wonder

    Alice Wonder Active Member

    Location:
    Redding, CA
    Unless I missed it, I did not see an actual claim that it sounds better than CD. I looked for it.

    I did see comparisons to MP3 and while there may be MP3s that are genuinely transparent to everyone, there a many MP3s that clearly have sacrificed audio that we can detect, so I don't have a problem with that claim.

    I think many -- including myself -- who do not believe there is an audio benefit to ``high definition'' were quick to jump on the anti-pono bandwagon but I have changed my mind. I still do not believe there is a benefit to high definition audio over 48 kHz 16 bit that I prefer to use, but the PONO device may be a very high quality portable player that makes it easy to play my flac files (even 48/44.1 kHz 16-bit) anywhere where I can plug speakers into it.

    So I will wait for it to be released before I further slam it, because I might like it. The service, well, the service may be the only way to get certain superior masterings - I don't know - so I may or may not use it even if I have the device, but the device might be a nice thing to take with me when I travel etc.
     
  11. gloomrider

    gloomrider Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Hollywood, CA, USA
    I totally agree with this. There's no reason not to embrace a $400 DAP with technology from a respected company (Ayre) and that claims to provide a major increase in sound quality from current mass market DAPs. But I'll let others spin the Kickstarter wheel.
     
  12. This is from ponomusic.com. The prices are similar to HDtracks:
    (192/24 = $24.99, 96/24 = $17.99, 44.1/24 = $14.99)

    How much will PonoMusic cost?
    The record companies set their own digital music prices, label by label. High-resolution digital albums at Ponomusic.com are expected to cost between $14.99 -$24.99, and there may be exceptions. For this price you get the best quality digital music available anywhere, you own these albums forever - they don’t live only in the cloud, but also on your computer and backup disc, and you can play them anytime you wish on your PonoPlayer or other compatible devices.

    We will also be offering many of your favorite individual songs. We'll let you know the pricing soon.
     
  13. daglesj

    daglesj Forum Resident

    Location:
    Norfolk, UK
    $40 worth of electronics that enables you to buy your music collection ALL OVER AGAIN.

    That is all.
     
  14. Alice Wonder

    Alice Wonder Active Member

    Location:
    Redding, CA
    You don't have to buy it all over again, it will play common current digital formats.
     
  15. dkmonroe

    dkmonroe A completely self-taught idiot

    Location:
    Atlanta
    This is the wrong place to lament people buying their collections all over again. There's plenty of folks here who not only have multiple copies of certain albums, but have multiple Japanese SHM-SACD issues of certain albums.
     
  16. daglesj

    daglesj Forum Resident

    Location:
    Norfolk, UK
    Yeah like that's going to happen with the target market.

    Lambs to the slaughter.
     
  17. dkmonroe

    dkmonroe A completely self-taught idiot

    Location:
    Atlanta
    The SLAUGHTER!? :laugh:

    I promise to be outraged when the first Pono buyer is killed, skinned, divided and shrink-wrapped for sale in the the supermarket.

    Geez. Did FiiO and HDTRACKS piss off people this much when they were announced?
     
    JL6161 likes this.
  18. Doug Sclar

    Doug Sclar Forum Legend

    Location:
    The OC
    C'mon. It's got a triangular shape. None of the other hi-rez players can claim that.
     
  19. user33977

    user33977 Banned

    Glad to still read a certain Herbie Handcock as artist for “Watermelon Man” on that screen of the middle device.
     
  20. gloomrider

    gloomrider Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Hollywood, CA, USA
    I think it's the whole financial transaction based on faith alone thing that has many wedged on Pono. Pono certainly has an awful lot to deliver in a relatively short period of time. The odds against their success are great.
     
  21. dkmonroe

    dkmonroe A completely self-taught idiot

    Location:
    Atlanta
    How is it "based on faith alone" any more than anything else that's marketed and sold? Are you 100% scientifically certain that HDTRACKS hi-res downloads are superior? Many people here buy them and brag about them. As for the Pono player, when it becomes available and a few people actually get hold of one and listen to it, then perhaps we may get a better idea of its advantages or lack thereof. Odds are against it? Well, perhaps that's why they went with Kickstarter, hoping that audio consumers would be interested enough to support it. It seems to me that it represents a lot that people should be at least charitably supportive of, and yet there's this consistent drumbeat of negativity, often with the flimsiest of pretexts. You'd think Neil teamed up with Wal-Mart to eliminate all other digital players and force everyone into his own proprietary format. It's wacky and I fail to understand it.

    Ask for a recommendation on any system component or speakers on this board and a plurality of members will not hesitate to recommend something that costs as much as a Pono player and 80 hi-res Pono albums and no one will flinch. And yet we've gotta be outraged over this $399 portable music player and a download store similar to HDTRACKS.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2014
  22. gloomrider

    gloomrider Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Hollywood, CA, USA
    I purchase a track (or more) on HDTracks and it's on my hard drive in mere minutes. I order a DAP from mp4nation or head-direct and I have it in a few days.

    Pono doesn't actually exist yet. That's a big deal.

    Actually, I'm not really a fan of HDTracks. The two albums I purchased from them were shamefully compressed. Definitely not my idea of High Definition. And I certainly never suggested they were in any way "superior".
     
  23. dkmonroe

    dkmonroe A completely self-taught idiot

    Location:
    Atlanta
    I don't understand this as a complaint. At all. If anything, it should imply that people should withhold criticism until they actually are able to test the product, or at least they shouldn't get all emotionally invested in talking it down.

    When Pono is rolled out, you'll be able to download a track in mere minutes, just like HDTracks.

    Should companies not advertise their product in advance? When AF announces that some new title is going to be remastered next month for sale in the fall, should we all scoff at it, saying, "Well, that sucks. It doesn't even exist yet."
     
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  24. dkmonroe

    dkmonroe A completely self-taught idiot

    Location:
    Atlanta
    I don't put the onus on you personally, but a lot people here are very enthusiastic about their HDTracks purchases. And some have complained about certain titles being compressed. But the point is, there's never been this multi-thread, 24 hour drumbeat of negativity toward HDTracks as there is toward Pono, and it's basically the same thing but with an optional player.
     
  25. gloomrider

    gloomrider Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Hollywood, CA, USA
    Comparing AF to Pono is not really apples-to-apples. AF actually exists, where again, Pono does not (yet).

    Pono has promised much and so far delivered nothing. I understand that no one is expecting anything until October. But the Kickstarter model (regardless of how "cheese moving" some believe it to be) is controversial as it asks customers to assume some financial risk in the roll out of a company and a new product (and in Pono's case, a new service as well). But skepticism is not hate. And I certainly wish Pono success. All people into audio will benefit if Pono is successful. But I stand by my earlier statement that the odds are against Pono. For example, if Apple really rolls out some content and new hardware to address the apparent demand for high resolution audio, Pono is done. Toast. And even if that doesn't happen, there are factors like Arye not having experience with DAPs or high volume production. How many total units do you suppose Ayre ships in one year? With Pono, that number will likely be exceeded in one month. And the download service will have to be head-and-shoulders above HDTracks if it is to get any traction from Pono owners. Otherwise, they'll just be putting whatever music files they already have on it.

    Again, skepticism is not hate.

    EDIT: This quote sums up the challenges of Kickstarter-funded gear

     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2014
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