"The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame and What It Really Means" by Chris Frantz of Talking Heads

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by MRamble, Apr 15, 2014.

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  1. manicpopthrill

    manicpopthrill Forum Resident

    Location:
    ICT, Kansas
    They do seem to be in the "least likely" club, along with the Jam and Smiths. It's too bad, since much of their work would still translate well to being performed by musicians well into their graying years.
     
  2. Oatsdad

    Oatsdad Oat, Biscuits, Abbie & Mitzi: Best Dogs Ever

    Location:
    Alexandria VA
    How was Billy Joel "rushed in"? He was eligible for a few years before he was inducted...
     
  3. docwebb

    docwebb Forum Resident

    Bingo.
     
  4. fallbreaks

    fallbreaks Forum Resident

    I wonder if more kids today listen to, say, Clyde McPhatter's music due to his inclusion in the RRHOF. I'm inclined to think not.
     
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  5. ATR

    ATR Senior Member

    Location:
    Baystate
    I don't think that's the exact message, although it's easy to read that into it. What I take him to mean is that there is much more to keeping a band together and making an impact on a mass level than just being a good band. Some of it involves roadies and technical people who put on the shows and make the recordings, some of it involves the well connected industry people including lawyers, accountants, and managers. It's how the sausage is made. FWIW, I didn't get my job through who I know but it is one way to get it done. But you won't keep any job if you can't do the work.
     
  6. MikeVielhaber

    MikeVielhaber Forum Resident

    Location:
    Memphis, TN
    Yeah seriously, And not only that, but Billy is one if the most successful rock artists ever. He's the 6th best selling artist of all time in the US just ahead of Michael Jackson and Pink Floyd. That despite ending his pop career (as a recording artist) over 20 years ago.
     
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  7. MikeVielhaber

    MikeVielhaber Forum Resident

    Location:
    Memphis, TN
    Sales is a measure of success and success is definitely part of the criteria. Success or influence....or both.

    And I'd argue that Simon and Garfunkel sold more. By a considerable amount even.
     
  8. alexpop

    alexpop Power pop + other bad habits....

    The Sex Pistols passed on HoF
    to tight
    Or to right?
     
  9. MikeVielhaber

    MikeVielhaber Forum Resident

    Location:
    Memphis, TN
    Well they passed on the ceremony. The hall doesn't need permission to induct.
     
  10. Say It Right

    Say It Right Not for the Hearing Impaired

    Location:
    Niagara Falls
    If you think that he was more deserving than other candidates, who waited a lot longer, then we'll just leave it at that.

    http://rockhall.com/inductees/induction-process/

    Sales is never mentioned as part of the process.
     
    BluesOvertookMe likes this.
  11. JoeF.

    JoeF. Forum Resident

    Location:
    New Jersey, USA
    I don't believe Hall & Oates are HoF material, but, okay, they had a lot of hits. So let's use them as a barometer. How is Heart HoF material then? They had a few hits in the late '70's, but they didn't put out a great album by any measure. Are they in for their "80's palaver, such as "These Dreams.?" I admit I'm a crank when it comes to The Rock and Roll Hall of Fame; to my way of thinking, a great record collection--or even a jukebox--is a "hall of fame." And it's not about who I like--I don't care for KISS, or Public Enemy, but I recognize their contributions and influence, so I "get" their inductions. But Heart? The Steve Miller Band had plenty of hits in the late '70's. Why not them? Journey? Styx anyone?
     
  12. MikeVielhaber

    MikeVielhaber Forum Resident

    Location:
    Memphis, TN
    Well that's completely subjective. You don't like Billy Joel so you think he's undeserving. His success, however, is not subjective and it was massive. And as a musician he wrote all the songs and was a fantastic piano player. He earned all that success himself and was able to keep it going for 20 years as a recording artist and is still very popular to the point that he can play once a month at Madison Square Garden. Over 20 years after his last album and hit single.

    And I think people get too hung up on there being some sort of "line" that artists have to stand in to gain entrance to the hall of fame. Well this person shouldn't be in until this person is in. You know the old saying you learned as a kid, two wrongs don't make a right.
     
  13. MikeVielhaber

    MikeVielhaber Forum Resident

    Location:
    Memphis, TN
    I like Heart quite a bit myself, but I'm sure the women in rock pioneers angle had a big influence on their induction. In fact, if it were just a band of dudes they very well may not have gotten in. I'm not sure their success alone was big enough to warrant induction, though it was considerable.
     
    four sticks likes this.
  14. elborak

    elborak Forum Resident

    That's more or less how I feel whenever some 19 year old (or younger) on The Voice states how they need this because they've been waiting their whole life for an opportunity like this.

    I also think of one time when Anita Baker was on The Tonight Show and Johnny Carson asked her why her face was so expressive when she sang. She replied that in the small clubs she'd played for years before she hit it big, the audience expected you to look like you were in pain when you performed.

    For the most part, bands and performers that took the hard road through the clubs were the better for it. But that was then... the pattern is different now and I'm still trying to decide what affect it has in the long run on the creativity and longevity of the current generation of performers.
     
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  15. Say It Right

    Say It Right Not for the Hearing Impaired

    Location:
    Niagara Falls
    Don't read between the lines. My post didn't specify anything about my personal opinion of his music or whether or not he's "deserving." It only indicated that the nomination was rushed. This was even stated by a former member of the committee.

    Well, good for him, but that's not need for you to get overly defensive over basically nothing.

    A very informative website is dedicated to stating the cases for non-inductees. Already went to the trouble of linking another source, which apparently didn't leave much of an impression, but it might be notinthehall.com. It's worth visiting.

    Meanwhile, it'd be very foolish to believe that cronyism, "friends in high places," postive reviews from Rolling Stones staff and helping to sell tickets to the dinner have no influence in the selections. That's kind of the purpose of the thread.
     
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  16. MikeVielhaber

    MikeVielhaber Forum Resident

    Location:
    Memphis, TN
    Whether it's that you don't think he's deserving or you think his induction was "rushed" the point of my post remains the same. His achievements and enduring popularity warrant it and even then he had to wait a few years so they weren't in too much of a rush apparently. That's independent of anybody else. Many groups deserve to be there and aren't....there's no question about that.... but that doesn't mean Billy Joel shouldn't be because of it. That was my last point. I don't believe in the line of thinking that one artist or group has to wait for another one to make it first.
     
  17. Oatsdad

    Oatsdad Oat, Biscuits, Abbie & Mitzi: Best Dogs Ever

    Location:
    Alexandria VA

    I still don't understand how Billy Joel was "rushed" when he didn't get in until his third year of eligibility.

    And while I'm at best a lukewarm Joel fan, I think he was a no-brainer HOF inductee. Seriously can't imagine how someone could argue he doesn't deserve it due to longevity and popularity and probably influence, too. He and Elton John are arguably the two most successful piano-playing frontmen ever, so it seems logical that they've inspired other keyboard players to take the lead as well...
     
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  18. Oatsdad

    Oatsdad Oat, Biscuits, Abbie & Mitzi: Best Dogs Ever

    Location:
    Alexandria VA
    I'm not sure what that means - I guess it's meant to be a slam on Joel and me, but it doesn't make much sense.

    The HOF isn't about the artists I like and who I think is the most talented. It's about the artists who've influenced and led the genre over the "rock era".

    Billy Joel is an "A"-level artist in that regard. Whether or not you like him, he was - and is - a big star. A Rock Hall without Billy Joel would be bizarre.

    If you want to argue some artists waited too long, go for it - I'll agree on a bunch of them. But I won't agree that Billy Joel should've waited more time than he did. I'm actually surprised he wasn't first ballot inductee...
     
  19. Say It Right

    Say It Right Not for the Hearing Impaired

    Location:
    Niagara Falls
    You've already been shown that sales is not even a factor of the induction process.

    Once more, my post never said that Billy Joel "didn't belong." So, you can quit with the straw man.

    Well, it was OP who had a dismissive attitude toward Heart and Hall & Oates, and you didn't seem to take too much exception. Billy Joel's name gets tossed out, and you start slamming the thread with replies. So, whatever. It's now considered semi-cool to like H2O because of "Live from Daryl's House." They had a long wait. Guess who else did? (Gasp) Kiss.
     
  20. Surly

    Surly Bon Viv-oh-no-he-didn't

    Location:
    Sugar Land, TX
    Did you see it in person or on TV? I ask because I was in attendance. I forget which song they did first, but it was incredible...however, there was a technical problem that would have hampered showing that song on TV. So, they played it a second time. The second performance of that song does match your description - probably because they had to redo it!

    The one thing I remember is while they were being introduced for their induction, the whole band was standing against the wall...and David Byrne was keeping his distance.
     
  21. MikeVielhaber

    MikeVielhaber Forum Resident

    Location:
    Memphis, TN
    It absolutely is a factor. But it's not a prerequisite. It's a factor because it's a measure of success, but not the only one. When you're the 6th best selling artist of all time in the US it has to factor in.

    My point was not that you said he didn't belong but that you implied he should have to wait until others you deem more deserving to get in before he does. If he's deserving then it shouldn't matter who else is or isn't in yet. That's their problem, not his.

    I like both Hall &Oates and Heart, but neither of them have the credentials that Billy Joel does. Billy Joel is a no brainer. Heart and Hall & Oates aren't so much and thats why they've waited so long to get in.
     
  22. seed_drill

    seed_drill Senior Member

    Location:
    Tryon, NC, USA
    I disagree. I think Dreamboat Annie and Little Queen are the equals of any of the 70s classics.

    That said, Heart got in before, say, Deep Purple, because Ann and Nancy are women, and, as such, Heart was the first important female fronted rock group. As such, they were groundbreaking. Bonnie Raitt was quite open about how her gender was the key to her induction. The same, quite obviously, goes for the only marginally successful Wanda Jackson.
     
  23. MikeVielhaber

    MikeVielhaber Forum Resident

    Location:
    Memphis, TN
    Agree, those albums are fantastic. I just listened to Little Queen yesterday.

    And also agree, and mentioned earlier, that their gender likely had a big influence on their induction. They were pioneers in that respect.
     
  24. JoeF.

    JoeF. Forum Resident

    Location:
    New Jersey, USA
    I'm sorry, but declaring either Dreamboat Annie or Little Queen to be the "equals of any of the '70's classics" is a tall order. There were hundreds of top-notch classic albums representing a vast diversity of styles recorded and released during the 1970's and neither of those two albums is ever in the conversation when discussing the "best." I understand your point about them being groundbreaking, but then you're admitting it wasn't the sheer excellence of their work that was the deciding factor in their inclusion. I mean if you want to talk about great women who wrote and recorded their own songs, let's vote Sandy Denny in this instant. Or to go further, let's induct Dolly Parton, Loretta Lynn and Tammy Wynette. Oh, but they're not really "rock and roll." They are closer to rock than Public Enemy --or even Madonna, for that matter--ever were....
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2014
  25. Oatsdad

    Oatsdad Oat, Biscuits, Abbie & Mitzi: Best Dogs Ever

    Location:
    Alexandria VA
    They were pioneers in being females? Hadn't there been females for millennia before Heart came along??? ;) :D
     
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