The imperfections of vinyl playback, and isn't it wonderful!

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by felix.scerri, Feb 19, 2014.

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  1. soundQman

    soundQman Senior Member

    Location:
    Arlington, VA, USA
    I stand by my comment that the pops are not inherent to the medium of vinyl; in other words not inevitable with proper care combined with good equipment and setup. I've spent some time recently auditioning high-end turntables, arms, cartridges, and phono preamps because I'm in the market for a final upgrade after living with my mid-fi analog rig for 30 years. During a couple of two-hour listening sessions I heard disc after disc, and only one pop in that entire time. It wasn't because I'm insensitive to ticks or background noise. In fact, because it was a critical listening audition, and because I've become accustomed to the advantages of digital playback regarding reduced noise (in my current system) I was paying increased attention to the sound, noise, and any artifacts of vinyl playback during my auditions of new phono equipment. The noise simply wasn't there.

    This is the equipment list - you can make your own judgement of the quality:

    Basis Inspiration Turntable
    Basis Superarm 9
    My Sonic Lab Eminent EX Cartridge
    Sutherland PhonoBlock Preamps (2)
    Kuzma 4Point Tonearm
    Clearaudio Goldfinger Statement Cartridge
    SME 20/3 Turntable
    Lyra Titan i Cartridge
     
    Last edited: Feb 26, 2014
  2. kevintomb

    kevintomb Forum Resident


    I totally get what you are saying and mostly agree with you.
    Do not take my comments the wrong way.
    But I used to be super sensitive to Any surface noise or IGD, or noises we usually say are inherent to vinyl, but over the years, I quit vinyl for a few years, then came back to it about 6-7 years ago.

    When I came back to it, oddly enough, a lot of the stuff that I was very sensitive to, I was not longer bothered by at all. I would think it would be the opposite way, after listening to digital for several years, but no, I was less bothered. I am not sure what happened during those handful of years. My equipment and records were the same, but my sensitivity or more likely my listening habits had changed. In the long gone past, I used to listen more on edge as If I was "expecting" to hear issues, when I came back to vinyl, I listened more for fun to re-listen to many dozen records I had not heard in many years.

    I am not even sure it is a thing about "Listening critically" or not, but more along the lines, that some are simply "anal retentive" about being pre-disposed to expecting to hear stuff and it ruins their enjoyment. They listen unconsciously "For noise" rather than simply listening to the music.

    Of couse everyone is different. Sure cleanliness and equipment matter a lot, but I also found that many of my far older records sounded quite different noise signature wise and all that stuff, than ones that were from later 70's and 80's.

    I am NOT referring to records being simply awash with noise, as even a decent mid priced table and good cart ( such as I owned ) was actually fairly quiet. I am talking more along the lines of turning up the volume between songs, or on very quiet parts, and purposely trying to "Hear stuff".

    I totaly agree, with clean records and even moderately decent rigs, at normal levels, it is never an issue.

    But for someone that "Wants it to be an issue", in their mind it can become one.
     
    The FRiNgE likes this.
  3. ROLO46

    ROLO46 Forum Resident

    Yes to both
    I heard a very expensive set up last week, playing a direct cut Harry James Band disc
    It was pretty good but IG distortion was evident and solo trumpet was splaying all over the image
    The system required much TLC to operate,unlike a music file from a laptop.
     
    Schoolmaster Bones and Tim 2 like this.
  4. Preston

    Preston Forum Resident

    Location:
    KCMO Metro USA
    Two sentences in a recent review of a Beethoven Violin Concerto on AnalogPlanet (http://www.analogplanet.com/content...nservatore-orchestra-conduced-constantin-silv) about de-horning of metal parts really got my attention:
    "As for the pressing, clearly Record Industry does not "dehorn" its metal parts because the first few plays were plagued by pops and clicks that eventually disappeared. So clean, and play more than a few times before deciding if the pressing meets your satisfaction."

    This has happened to me several times lately. I listen to an LP one day and determine that I'll have to send it back because of scratches, non-fill, general noise. I play it the next day to confirm my previous assessment and the offending noise is greatly reduced. Thinking that I am going insane, I play it again and there is no noise whatsoever.

    I asked in a comment to the review for Mr. Fremer to weigh in on this issue, because if his readers knew which pressing plants didn't de-horn their metal parts, we might not return as many LPs to hard-pressed record shops (though they seem to be doing very well every time I have visited one the last year or so).

    I think the RI he is referring to is in the Netherlands (or that vicinity), but this information could be useful to SHMF members.
     
    jupiterboy likes this.
  5. motorcitydave

    motorcitydave Enlightened Rogue In Memoriam

    Location:
    Las Vegas, NV, USA
    I dunno, my set up isn't horrendous, imo. I suppose I'll try cleaning the records some more...
     
  6. ROLO46

    ROLO46 Forum Resident

    A good record cleaning machine costs £1200 ,a table £3000, its a very expensive hobby
    LPs cost from 25 to 50 quid !
    A good cart costs more than a Neumann microphone....
    This cannot be right.
     
  7. Tim 2

    Tim 2 MORE MUSIC PLEASE

    Location:
    Alberta Canada
    Which just goes to prove you can tolerate to just about anything if you really want to .
    It's only those Lp's that have a great deal of pops and ticks that bother me .
     
  8. Szeppelin75

    Szeppelin75 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Panama
    I'm with you. i love vinyl, but every time the pops, ticks and surface noise get in the way of the music i think of going digital...but 5 minutes later i'm back to my senses. Vinyl when it sounds good it's GREAT. But when not...
     
    Tim 2 and Darran39123 like this.
  9. Col Kepper

    Col Kepper Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Texas, Where else?
  10. Jim in Houston

    Jim in Houston The Godfather of Alt-Country & Punk

    Location:
    Houston, TX, USA
    Wow, "Public News"? That used to be the local "alternative" paper here in Houston.
     
    Col Kepper likes this.
  11. quicksrt

    quicksrt Senior Member

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    I have clean copies of all my favorite LPs and many singles. These records play without the crackles and pops that so many dislike. And some of the LPs that do have some minor ticks, the music is so much louder, and sounds so great that nobody in their right mind would mind.

    If you could collect, like seriously collect from 1975 to 1995, then you could put together a nice collection without paying too much. There were import bins 75 to 85 that would blow your mind. Cutout bins too, wonderful first pressings, used bins full of cool box sets, imports, and promos, and then audiophile reissues from MFSL, etc.

    Putting together a nice collecting used to be fun, and you could do it on a budget. I've never been rich, but I've owned prime slices of that black gold. It was not always the $20 to $50 LP.
     
    The FRiNgE likes this.
  12. Alice Wonder

    Alice Wonder Active Member

    Location:
    Redding, CA
    I like vinyl for the same reasons I like older movies and photographs. It is the imperfections that give the experience character.
    I think it can be simulated on CD but most CDs don't, instead preferring for the clean synthetic.

    Not saying the pops and clicks are what I want to hear, just like I don't want a grainy photograph, but minor imperfections make it more genuine. At least to me. Maybe it is all in my head.
     
    Dmann201 likes this.
  13. G E

    G E Senior Member

    My listening sessions are usually weekend nights after dinner. I wash my hands thoroughly to make sure grease and sticky food particles have no chance of getting on my vinyl surfaces. Especially if I had BBQ ribs!

    Paper sleeves may lightly scuff records- but i would think these are surface marks that would not affect playback. Most of mine in plastic lined ones. They are old and I plan to replace them after I get a proper record cleaner.

    Cartridges are a factor in background noise. My Grado Ref Sonata plays much quieter than the entry level Black Grado that preceded it. Stylus profile is the likely reason.
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2014
    The FRiNgE likes this.
  14. The FRiNgE

    The FRiNgE Forum Resident

    Just to chime in a bit on your comments, I have noticed in my record hunts, and online, such as you tube, that many record collectors and audiophiles do not know the best practice of removing and replacing an LP to its sleeve. Also I have noticed some people pull the record out by just barely touching its edge, (between thumb and finger) but this is still the wrong way to handle a record.

    First of all, there is a record handling tutorial found on some of the old Columbia LP's from the 50's. The instructions with a photo demonstrate how to open the cover, one edge against the body, and the other edge pushed gently by one hand. This separates the leading edge which then the LP with inner sleeve easily slip out without any pressure against it. This method must be gentle as to avoid splitting the seams. I have not damaged a single cover by this method. Additionally, there is a warning not to touch the playing surface, yet no instructions on how to do that.

    Aside from the proper way to remove the record with sleeve, there are no further instructions on how to remove from the inner sleeve... which is more critical. Worse than that, the old recommendation for cleaning is with a damp cloth, Not the way to clean a record, in fact this drives any remaining debris into the groove where the stylus encounters it, and the result is increased noise and groove damage.... but that aside.

    The most neglected point on how to handle a record is how to remove from the inner sleeve without scuffing the record. There is a right way, and 1000 wrong ways to do this. I do not wish to seem too opinionated, however this method I am about to share does work:

    1) to remove from inner sleeve, wash the hands, allow to dry, no food remnants, no potato chip grease, (bread and most foods contain oil) just clean dry hands.
    2) open the leading edge, reach inside with the the hand resting the middle fingers on the label, the outer edge touching at the base of the thumb. (the open sleeve will not be creased or damaged)
    3) Tilt the record and sleeve vertically.. this takes any gravitational pull away from the sleeve for minimal contact and/or force against the record surface.
    4) With the record in sleeve vertically oriented, pull the sleeve UP!!
    5) As the record edge is just about to exit the sleeve, tilt back about 20 degrees so that gravity helps the record label to rest more securely on the middle fingers.
    6) at this point one hand has the edge of the sleeve, the other holding the record by the middle fingers on the label and the edge resting between the thumb and palm of the hand. After placing the sleeve down, the other hand is free to handle the record by its edge.
    7) to replace the record, reverse the process, very important to be vertically oriented and let the sleeve fall on the record mostly by its own weight,

    This takes a little practice. I encourage all to try it. Your records will no longer be scuffed by handling them.
    Further note, the wrong way is by placing the fingers outside the sleeve, and horizontal orientation. This exerts force on the record surface and abrades it.

    Thoughts? criticism?
    Steve VK
     
    Last edited: Apr 16, 2014
    G E, Robert C, quicksrt and 1 other person like this.
  15. Robin L

    Robin L Musical Omnivore

    Location:
    Fresno, California
    Yes, that obviously is not right.
     
  16. druboogie

    druboogie Maverick Stacker

    Location:
    New Jersey
    I buy a lot of my vinyl used off ebay, I usually get NM condition and up, pay at least $9 for them, and the records have all showed up very clean, with no clicks and pops. I dont shop the bargain bins to avoid problems. I dont want to hear clicks and pops anymore. So 97% of my vinyl is squeaky clean, click and pop free, like all the records were brand new. Ive been very successful with this for the last few years. And with storing them in MSFL sleeves, handling them right, the records stay clean. So the Vinyl format does not mean you automatically get noise, anyone that says that just doesnt know what they are doing.

    But it could be said that noise may be inherent in CHEAP vinyl. Cant be surprised if your vinyl is noisy when you only pay $1 for it.

    BUT if people like the OP like some clicks and pops and embrace it as part of their listening experience, hey...go for it. The only imperfection I see as part of my vinyl experience is pulling them out of the sleeves...lol. In dreamland, I'd like them to magically float onto my stacker.
     
  17. quicksrt

    quicksrt Senior Member

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    I've also found plenty of Near Mint vinyl on ebay that was exceptionally clean, no pops or clicks. Once in a while I do get a NM graded LP with scuffs and or scratches all over one of both sides. It goes back to seller for refund, end of that. Seller generally makes up some excuse for not noticing all that wear, or whatever. But for the most part if you stick to top grades and pay a little more, you get top quality.

    I would love to write a guide for buying used vinyl on ebay. But I don't want the competition on certain items just yet. I was the first one on the internet to suggest using diluted dish soap for cleaning LPs. Nobody, like nobody was using Palmolive or Dawn dish soap on records 12 or 15 years ago. Not audiophiles or collectors anyway. If they did, they never mentioned it. In fact I was told it was foolish for every reason you can think of. But I posted my method here and one other online forum and now you can read that many others have caught on to it. It's neat that I have made that much impact on the internet and in the world. LOL!
     
  18. druboogie

    druboogie Maverick Stacker

    Location:
    New Jersey
    So YOURE the one that I got that idea from. Ive been using dish soap and water in a spray bottle with a light hair paintbrush for the past couple years, and I vacuum it after that. Its awesome.

    BTW you should do a video as well, and with that, do a part on how to spot and avoid styrene vinyl. I know how already but Im not up to the task of making the vids.
     
  19. quicksrt

    quicksrt Senior Member

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    It really was unheard of back a while. I also use tap water, and tap water with distilled rinse as well (depending on the LP). I dry with clean lint free terry cloth towel, drying in direction of grooves always. I've gotten lots of complements from buyers like "cleanest used records I have ever bought" and the like. There are only a few labels that need to be concerned about so far as water getting it and doing damage. Most labels handle water with no issues at all.

    I should do some videos as I have the video / sound equipment. But I always though my voice was too low and monotone, making Lou Reed sound like an opera singer in comparison. But I guess too low is better than too high and screechy LOL.
     
  20. druboogie

    druboogie Maverick Stacker

    Location:
    New Jersey
    Low voice is fine. Monotone can be easily fixed with a sort of sing songy delivery. Its more psychological than anything else. Low voice with a sing songy delivery will keep the attention of the viewers, toss some wit in there and youre straight. In fact, a monotone with ironic sarcasm could work too. StevenWright like..
     
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  21. James_S888

    James_S888 Forum Resident

    It's always interesting these discussions and sometimes funny.
    I have quite a lot of stuff on vinyl and CD where it's the same mastering, etc. eg., Norah Jones first two albums.
    Now stuff on vinyl and SACD, eg., the MoFi Frank Sinatra reissues. Which is really the same.
    My analogue and digital front ends are I think at comparable levels and I think capable of extracting most of what's there.

    The vinyl sounds better. There's more "there" there.
     
    wgriel, The FRiNgE and druboogie like this.
  22. G E

    G E Senior Member

    I have been handling records for so long it is second nature. I have witnessed all too many times the completely inappropriate handling of LPs, although that now is a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away.
     
  23. quicksrt

    quicksrt Senior Member

    Location:
    Los Angeles
    The worst and sometimes the most heartbreaking is when you bring up to the counter at a store - a rather rare one, and the clerk does not know how to handle LPs and pulls out the LP putting scuffs all over and messes it up so bad that you have to walk away and not buy the album.

    Or you see it coming, you can tell this person has never owned vinyl in their life, and so you ask if you can handle it, and show them (as to prove LP was not switched with different jacket). You tell them that it's an important LP to you, and they dust and all it likely to get scuffed into the vinyl if jacket it not help open when LP is removed. They argue with you that they must handle it, and they get offended, feel it's a confrontation that they must "win" at all costs. I rarely get them to see my thoughts clearly. Old jackets can get their seams popped easily as well. I tell them that it's a 45 year old LP with a very nice jacket, I explain to no avail. Amoeba Hollywood (who should know better) are some of the worst in this regard. But then it's Hollywood, where everyone's a star and everyone's in show biz. But where in reality there are more uneducated losers than I have ever seen in my life.
     
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