Shure V15 Type III: I'm not sure what to think about it

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by action pact, Apr 21, 2014.

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  1. action pact

    action pact Music Omnivore Thread Starter

    I was able to get a Shure V15 Type III with the original elliptical (not hyperelliptical) stylus, plus the box, inner case, and booklet for a very good price. I'm not certain of how much use the stylus has gotten, but it tracks well, sounds 'normal,' and the suspension is not sagging.

    I mounted it on the SME 3009 S2 Improved that's on my TD-124, and listened to it for 2-3 LPs, and I'm just not sure what to think about it. Amplification is provided by a restored Fisher 400 with upgraded/modded phono stage, and speakers are KEF LS50's with a powered sub.

    Let me start by saying that my 'reference' cartridge is a 1984 Joseph Grado Signature 8MR which has been upgraded with an MCZ stylus, and the loading has been adjusted to 32k (to compensate for the difference in the coils in the native MCZ body that it was designed for). This cartridge does a remarkable job of pulling the instruments apart and placing them in a 3-dimensional space, and sounds more neutral and balanced than the Grado Prestige Series carts. Several folks have said that it is comparable to a modern Grado Sonata.

    Listening to the V15-III, my impressions are:

    • Mids are more forward than the Grado
    • Bass is less extended than the Grado
    • Imaging is just OK, not nearly as deep as the Grado
    • Detail is fairly good
    • Recordings that sound thrilling with the Grado just kind of sat there with the Shure

    It sounded nice, but nothing really reached out and grabbed me while listening to the V15-III. It didn't do anything exceptionally well or cause me to sit up and pay attention.

    I've done a lot of reading on the forums about the V15-III, and that's where my real confusion is. I've read comments ranging from "the best MM of all time!" to "great tracking, but boring and unmusical."

    Is my V15-III's magic being severely limited by a 40-year-old elliptical stylus with unknown miles? Will the addition of a pricey JICO HE or SAS stylus make it sound glorious, or will that merely leave me disappointed and poorer? (There's nothing worse than throwing good money after bad.) Or should I just resell it and get back my $$?

    There's so much written out there about what a classic cartridge this is, I really expected to be wowed.

    IMG_1308.jpg
     
  2. RonW

    RonW Forum Resident

    Location:
    New York
    I've had this cart since the late seventies and have several MR stylus as spares. Not sure what is going on with yours it should sound very musical, extended in every way with great seperation. Not boring in any way.

    Maybe your stylus is bad or somehow you have an alignment problem. Don't know. These like 1 1/4 gm vtf and a high compliance arm.
     
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  3. action pact

    action pact Music Omnivore Thread Starter

    Thanks, Ron. Your description matches what I was expecting, but not getting.

    My SME arm is reportedly the perfect match for the V15-III, which is what is making me wonder if the stylus is limiting its performance, which does seem likely. Alignment was done with the SME-supplied protractor, and there is no audible mistracking at 1.25g VTF.
     
  4. RonW

    RonW Forum Resident

    Location:
    New York
    What happens if you increase vtf to 1.5gm?
     
  5. action pact

    action pact Music Omnivore Thread Starter

    ??? I would expect that to merely deaden the sound further.
     
  6. ssmith3046

    ssmith3046 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Arizona desert
    I've been a fan of this cartridge since 73. It needs to be loaded to Shure's specs, 47 k with 400 to 500 pF, and IMO the Jico SAS stylus is the best thing to happen to this cartridge since it was introduced.
     
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  7. action pact

    action pact Music Omnivore Thread Starter

    I'm using the stock SME interconnects, and the Fisher's phono stage has no capacitance of its own. I believe everything matches its required specs; it certainly doesn't sound bright (which would indicate too little capacitance).

    Well, I don't doubt that, but that doesn't really address my concerns. For example, I have an SAS on my M91ED, and it is certainly a huge upgrade over the OEM stylus, but it still doesn't turn it into anything approaching a high end cartridge; my Grado still out-performs it.

    I'm trying to determine if a stylus change on the V15-III will allow it to perform at a level commensurate with its lofty reputation.
     
  8. ddarch

    ddarch Senior Member

    Location:
    NH
    I would venture to say it's the stylus. The Jico SAS is worth every penny.
     
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  9. ssmith3046

    ssmith3046 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Arizona desert
    I agree but I'm not sure if action pact would think that it allows the cartridge to perform at a level commensurate with its lofty reputation. I listened to the type III for decades with stock styli so when I started using the SAS stylus a few years ago I couldn't believe the difference it made.
     
  10. action pact

    action pact Music Omnivore Thread Starter

    That's what I was hoping to hear!

    Could you describe the specific improvements you heard? I mean, I expect the SAS to provide better detail and also track like a bloodhound, but did it also significantly improve imaging depth and width?

    I've also read that the SAS also changes the character of the V15-III, i.e.: the SAS adds more top end air but less bass weight. Has that been your experience as well? Any improvement to frequency extension in either direction? Did you find that the V15-III/SAS required some loading adjustments, either to the capacitance or resistance?
     
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  11. RonW

    RonW Forum Resident

    Location:
    New York
    I was thinking you had a wear problem of some sort affecting tracking. I don't know I've never experienced the symptoms you describe and I guess I'm out of ideas. I use mine on an ST-7 linear tracker at 1 1/4gm vtf. There is no anti skate adjust in play either.
    Maybe as the others have said it is a loading issue. I have 200pf on mine and 47k.
     
  12. action pact

    action pact Music Omnivore Thread Starter

    Thanks. Fortunately I am not hearing any tracking issues. I'm suspecting/hoping that the suspension is just getting tired from age.
     
  13. RonW

    RonW Forum Resident

    Location:
    New York
    You should see at least 2mm between the cart and LP. Maybe just a tad less.
     
  14. action pact

    action pact Music Omnivore Thread Starter

    That sounds about right. I'm not seeing any sagging, but that doesn't mean that the suspension is as pliant as it should be.

    I guess I'll just have to shell out the bucks for an SAS as funds become available, and cross my fingers! :)
     
  15. Wait! Are you loading the Shure with 32K ohms?
     
  16. action pact

    action pact Music Omnivore Thread Starter

    No, 47k.

    It doesn't sound dull per se... It just lacks fine detail, imaging depth, and overall pizazz.
     
    Last edited: Apr 21, 2014
  17. I use a Shure V15 MK IV with SAS Stylus. I never got to hear my cart with a factory stylus because it came to me with no stylus. Kevin Gray uses a V-15VMR (but not with SAS) on his cutting lathe. Here one poster describes the V-15VMR as dry wine. I happen to like dry wine. My cart is definately not lacking in fine detail and imaging depth. As for Kevin's cart, well, that Shure is the first tool he uses to check his test pressings.
     
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  18. RonW

    RonW Forum Resident

    Location:
    New York
    I really do think you have a worn stylus with everything else being set up correctly this is my only conclusion. This cartridge is just amazing in every way as you know because you bought one. It is a legend.
     
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  19. action pact

    action pact Music Omnivore Thread Starter

    You know, I used to have a V15-IV with an SAS, and never was able to get it to sound good; it sounded detailed but very blah otherwise. I was also able to briefly test drive a V15-III with a JICO SAS a couple of years ago, and it sounded very bright! (The one I have now is not bright at all with the stock stylus.)

    In those days I was using a Technics SL-1200MK2 with an entry level phono preamp, so I suspect it was a combination of an arm compliance mismatch, a preamp capacitance mismatch, and other bad mojo.

    I'm really curious to revisit the SAS on this cartridge. Time to save my pennies.
     
  20. action pact

    action pact Music Omnivore Thread Starter

    Yeah, me too. Something must be not right.
     
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  21. action pact

    action pact Music Omnivore Thread Starter

    OK, I'm convinced! :D
     
  22. I think the Shure's are blah, but in a good way :). Flat and austere they are. Kevin Grey does dis' the SAS stylus. He points out that they have a peak at 16khz. I have not run into any untoward brightness with my setup. one warning on my bias and Kevin's bias; Both of us are using the Shure to get work done mainly.
     
  23. Have you tried a hard core cleaning on that stylus?
     
  24. Beattles

    Beattles Senior Member

    Location:
    Florence, SC
    I had a V15 Type II and found it similar to your description. I purchased a V15 Type IV and a V15 VMR and found the sound to be much more to my liking. Nothing dull and nothing exagerated about the sound. All have original styli. I have a SAS for the VMR, but I like the sound of the Shure Stylus.
     
  25. RonW

    RonW Forum Resident

    Location:
    New York
    You might want to consider looking for a V15MR (Micro Ridge) new old stock. It won't be cheap but you will be pleased. Do your thing with the Jico but still keep your eyes open for it in the meantime.
     
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