Question about Audio Technica AT33PTG/ll on RB300 or 303

To the OP: the AT33PTG//II is most certainly compatible with a Rega RB303 arm, though setup is not a cakewalk.

I have this cart on my Rega RP3 and absolutely love it, after previously having had a Goldring 1042 and Rega Exact 2. The best description I can think of for how this cart sounds is 'smooth'. One of the best needledroppers uses this cart. I have also noticed other needledroppers using this cart, and despite the differences in turntables, phono stages, etc., between different needledroppers, one thing remained unchanged about this cart's tonality - its smoothness.

As mentioned by others the PTG//II will be sensitive to VTA especially on a Rega arm, so proper setup will require some effort. However, the reward is well worth it.

 

Awesome!
What are you setting the VTA at? Are you using a spacer or not?

 

Here is a review of several cartridges including the AT33EV.
https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&...=fh37IGusQXNN902P5jfCDw&bvm=bv.71778758,d.dGc
Ties in with what I heard.A wall -of-sound sort of presentation and strongly rolled off treble.Look at the frequency response.
Of course arm interactions can alter that presentation a bit .

 

It's definitely a warm cart, but balanced. If someone's getting "strongly rolled off treble" with it, I suspect a bad set up -- particularly too low VTA and probably too heavy a resistance load. It's not what I hear when I play mine. Here's a little excerpt of a needledrop I did the other day from the Classic Records reissue of Sonny Rollins' The Bridge. I don't think there's any problem with the frequency extension on either end of the spectrum, the tenor has bite and there's good detail in hearing the reverb, the cymbals and snare have snap and airiness, there's just no edginess to it, and the bass is full and tight, and great separation, not a "wall-0f-sound": https://www.dropbox.com/s/kzwnmq3d8croqg9/Without a Song snippet.wav

If you have the time and patience to download the whole 96/24 track listen to the open-close hi-hat beat behind the guitar solo. I don't think there's anything rolled-off sounding about it at all: https://www.dropbox.com/s/rdextmokzo1fzul/without a song rip.wav

 

I put the wrong short excerpt above, that was from a different rip. Here's the correct one:

https://www.dropbox.com/s/1su2hr0qu7hhfnz/Without a Song Excerpt.wav

 

I've got a 2 mm spacer on at the moment but I think it needs a bit more (maybe 3.5 or 4 mm). If other Rega owners use a spacer with this cart please post your spacer findings.

 

Wow, that sounds fantastic. Nothing lacking. Thanks for doing that. The AT33EV is a great cart.

 

Glad you like it. The cart may not be the last word in anything, and certainly the RB250 arm I'm using, even with upgraded wiring, upgraded end stub and counterweight, a different mounting that enables VTA adjustment, and substantial arm tube damping, is far from the last word in tonearms, still, based on my experience the cart is anything but inherently "strongly rolled off" at either frequency extreme or lacking in separation, though you can make it sound soft and opaque if you set the VTA too low and load down the cartridge. To me, when the cart is loaded at 100 ohms it definitely sounds noticeably less crisp in the upper frequencies vs. even 200 ohms loading (the recommended loading is 100 ohms or greater, and I think greater is definitely the way to go).

That graph in the link that Slack posted showed the upper frequency response steadily declining by a total of 2 dB from about 1kHz to around 15kHz and then falling off sharply from there. While that certainly doesn't match my results, the only "strong roll off" even in that plot is the drop from -2 dB to -5 dB between about 15kHz and 20kHz which I admit, if it's happening, I can't hear since both my speakers and my hearing have a strong roll off in that last half octave too. A gradual 2 dB decline between 1kHz and 15kHz isn't really something I'd call a "strong roll off," though it's a wide one, and, as I say, I'm not sure it's even replicated in my set up, in fact I think I have a bit of a rise at around 15kHz when the cart is loaded at 470 ohms as it was in this instance (I was looking at a frequency plot for the runout groove portion of this rip in at attempt to see where any noise and resonance and rumble might be and that plot seemed to track the RIAA curve pretty well).

No doubt it's a cart that's on the warmer side and you can definitely find much brighter MCs, though those tend not to be to my taste. I can, at some point, if I get a chance, post a clip of some more dense music.

 

I'm curious about this loading idea. At 100 ohms on my system, brighter albums are plenty bright, like the new UK reissue of "Close to the Edge" -- it's just an inherently bright album and I don't think I could handle any more. I can't think of anything that sounds overly warm or soft, unless it's something that I know is lacking in top end. Since I have to open up my phono stage to get at the load adjustment pots, it's not something I can easily do while I listen, so I'm trying to think this through before experimenting.

Last night, I listened to my early copy of Jackson Browne's "Late for the Sky," and I was pretty stunned at how 3D and realistic the vocals were, as well as the separation in the harmonies and other instruments. The bass had wonderful growl-y texture and went really deep. I wouldn't change a thing about how it sounded. Also, the AP reissue of "Saxophone Colossus" was stunning. Maybe 100 ohms is right in my system/room? My guess is that any brighter and it would start sounding etched instead of natural, transparent and open, which is how it sounds now. Interesting...

 

Yeah. I didn't like 100 ohms in my system, when I went between CD and LP I was surprised at how soft and warm the LP sounded -- not so much in a good way but like there was detail and musical information being lost. At lighter loads things seemed better, though maybe I'm just hearing the effects of less insertion loss. But no doubt system matching plays a big role. I was also surprised at how much the cartridge's frequency balance shifted with small VTA adjustments despite a relatively simple elliptical stylus. I suspect the ML PTG/II will be even more sensitive to VTA changes.

 

I also found that the AT33EV was sensitive to VTA adjustments, and it took a while to get dialed in. With the arm too low the highs just kind of disappear, and the difference is just a couple of mm. Luckily my Audiomods arm has adjustable VTA. One question: is the gain significantly higher at 200 ohms? That's one thing I could use more of: I have to turn the volume up a little higher than I'd like, though it's pretty close to CD volume, just a bit less.

 

There's a little less insertion loss at 200 ohm. It's small but noticeable. Less still at 470 ohms. So it's hotter, yeah. But I don't run a huge amount of phono stage gain to begin with, 57 dB between SUT and phono stage, then I have 12 dB of line stage gain. It's much lower in level than my CD output -- I usually find myself setting the line stage volume between 11 o'clock and just past 12 o'clock with phono; more like 10 o'clock with CD.

Yeah, when I see descriptions of the AT33EV as sounding rolled in the highs I always wonder how it was set up because I had the same experience as you -- too low and the highs get swallowed up.

 

I have the very same combination (PTG2 on a RB303). Works like a charm.

 

Excellent!

Spacer on it? No spacer?

 

No. Just a plain RP3 with no tweaks. And a carefully adjusted PTG2. The good thing about this cart is that it will sound sh*tty (not properly tracking, sounding slightly distorted) if not properly adjusted, so that will give you an idea about whether you are on the right track or not when adjusting.

 

So perhaps no spacer works here...interesting..I have the Wallytractor and will attempt to figure this out...some say the 2mm spacer...it is only 16mm tall...

 

Ain't that the truth.

jeff

 

Interesting. Did you align to Baewarld? Stevenson? Something else?

Also, with no spacer what would you say the distance is between the bottom of your cart and the record?

 

Baerwald. I'll check the distance when I get home tomorrow.

 

I just checked and the distance is about 2-3 mm at 2g tracking force. The arm looks parallel to the record surface (using a 150-gram record).

I've experimented with using spacers on my Rega when I had a Denon DL-110 due to reading comments about their arms being set up for Rega carts, which are not as tall. I recorded snippets to 24/96 digital in order to be able to do an objective and direct comparison. No difference, no benefits, so I decided to stay with the default setup. I figured Rega knew what they were doing...

 

Thanks for checking, kind of what I thought.

I have a 2 mm spacer on mine and the distance is probably similar. Even if I removed the spacer I don't think the distance would change drastically. My only concern is with records that aren't flat - the bottom of the cart comes very close to the surface of the record.

 

I have quite a few records that aren't perfectly flat. Some of them are adventurously wavy even. Never had a problem tracking those.

 

So I experimented with changing the loading last night, which was interesting. At 200 ohms, there was definitely a hotter top end. At first I liked it, as there was greater clarity, but after a bit it was tiring -- sibilances were way too pronounced, surface noise was higher, and voices had a hard edge. I backed it down to 120 and it was about the same. So I went back down to 100 and I realize in my system, it is just right. At 100, I wouldn't want it brighter.

Makes me wonder about that sample that was posted. It didn't sound very good, and it shouldn't have sounded that way. It could be a couple of things in addition to setup problems. Maybe they had it loaded well below 100. Or maybe the cart hadn't broken in. I know on mine, it sounded great at first, but then after a couple of hours it sounded pretty closed in for a few hours, before opening up to be even better than before, where it stayed. Conversely, the stylus could be worn out or damaged. Toward the end of its life, mine lost its sparkle and developed a slightly muffled sound, before some distortion tipped me off that the stylus was done (after about 1000 hours).

 

I am in correspondence with the feller who designs this...
He seems very cool and I am wondering if anybody has tried his SUT or anything with the Cinemag transformers with this cart...

http://www.parksaudiollc.com/budgiesut.html

 

I tried the regular 3440's with my 33PTG a couple years ago. I purchased them for a friend, as he was using a Koetsu Black at the time, and needed the gain for his MM stage. I thought they sounded quite nice, maybe not quite as detailed as my Picollo, but pretty good, especially for the money. Better than my Sowter's, but that comes down to loading IMHO. The CineMag's were wired for 150 ohms.

jeff