What kind of sonic problems putting my stereo in a square room?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Mike from NYC, Aug 21, 2014.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Mike from NYC

    Mike from NYC Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Surprise, AZ
    The room I have my stereo in doesn't sound very good no matter how I position my Maggies. One speaker is against a side wall and the other isn't and it has an off kilter sound. The speakers are pulled 4' from the back wall so that isn't the problem and I can't position the speakers any other way.

    The only other room is a 11' x 12' room which is my spare bedroom but I can position the speakers better.

    Thoughts?
     
  2. tim185

    tim185 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Australia
    Symmetry is ULTRA important. You hasve discovered this. If you dont have it your imaging is going to be futzed with, in a major way.

    In a square room, or a room that has dimensions divisable by each other, you get double trouble. Modes pile up in various areas causing big peaks and/or nulls in your frequency response. 11 x 12 is still very close to square and may not be worth the trouble of moving your gear unless there is other benefits to that room.

    Try your speakers right up almost touching the wall behind them before you do anything. Generally, most speakers will measure much better in this position. Dipole speakers no, very large rooms where you can get a long way from walls no, but otherwise its the best spot. The internet may tell you otherwise, the internet is wrong. If you have a way of testing your room response that would be great and would demonstrate this to you.

    Ok I missed the bit where you said you cant try them any other way. May well be worth changing rooms. In a small room 4 ft off the wall is going to be horrible.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2014
    The FRiNgE likes this.
  3. RonW

    RonW Forum Resident

    Location:
    New York
    Ntotrar likes this.
  4. tim185

    tim185 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Australia
    facepalm.
     
    The FRiNgE likes this.
  5. The Good Guy

    The Good Guy Forum Resident

    Location:
    UK
    Try putting bookshelves or stuff in corners , experiment.
     
  6. Hipper

    Hipper Forum Resident

    Location:
    Herts., England
    When you say the speakers are both 4' off the back wall does that mean you are happy with the bass, but because of the closeness of one of them to the side wall, does that mean vocals, imaging etc. is not right?

    What if you put something solid beside the speaker away from the wall, to imitate a wall?

    Or perhaps alter the toe-in so that each speaker's toe-in is different.

    There have been some posts on here recently about diagonal set ups but I don't know how that would apply to Magnepans:

    http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threads/square-room-diagonal-setup-wow-what-a-difference.372529/

    It might help us if you could show as a drawing or photo of the problem.
     
  7. Kyhl

    Kyhl On break

    Location:
    Savage
    Can you describe what you don't like about the sound of your room?
    We are guessing based on norms.

    As stated, square, or rooms with two or more measurements will have double or triple affect on the associated mode. That means even order multiples of the mode will also be more pronounced. So if you have a big mode at 50hz, you will also hear it into vocals as the multiples affect up to 200hz, 250hz, 300hz etc.

    An asymmetrical setup may help reduce a mode associated with the speaker to wall distance at the cost of imaging but it won't fix the room dimension modes. You could really muck it up by placing speakers at a 1/4 of the wall measure.
     
    The FRiNgE likes this.
  8. The FRiNgE

    The FRiNgE Forum Resident

    The square room is acoustic hell, avoid! Just one more suggestion, Try hanging some drapery on the back wall, and try the near field on the side walls too. Someone mentioned bookshelves. This is to help disperse reflections, always a good thing. But care must be taken to not place objects on the shelf that rattle with the bass line! I always encourage everyone to use the hand clap method to test your room reflection. A clap on the hands should sound crisp with a short, smooth decay. If you hear discrete echoes reverberating around the room, at least one wall and perhaps the floor need treatment. Reverberations in the room cause harshness in the treble, and maybe comb filtering in the mid band. Again, the decay should be smooth, no discrete echoes.

    Also try the handclap in the square room. They are famous for fast reverberating reflections, very bad!
     
  9. Mike from NYC

    Mike from NYC Senior Member Thread Starter

    Location:
    Surprise, AZ
    Unfortunately Maggies need a lot of space, especially behind them to get the tonal balance correct and imaging. When I first set them up I tried them at 2' from the rear wall and they sounded terrible and slowly I pulled them out 6" at a time and finally was fairly happy with the sound. I tried varying speaker separation distances and moving the speakers from one side to the other in the space I had to move them. I also varied toeing and came up with a compromise as when the Maggies are toed in too much they became too bright for my ears. This stereo system is in the back area of my living room and although I am the 'King of my castle' I still have to make some compromises because of the space I have. I also have to sit fairly close to a back wall and I tried varying that position as well.

    What ruined it for me was auditioning speakers a few weeks ago and hearing an almost 3D/holographic sound. I had that in NY when they were in a room, my basement, I designed specifically for my stereo and HT but I no longer have that type of room. The Maggies 'sang' in that room but not here in AZ.

    I just tried the 'handclap' as Fringe suggested and I can hear an echo in my living room but none in the spare room. My house is pretty new and has the 'open' look' and extends from the living room all the way to the rear of my home with tile floors although my living room is carpeted and I do have large area rugs in my 'great room' which encompasses my kitchen and dining area as well as an entertainment area. Nonetheless my great room has echos in it due to all the tile.

    I just don't know what to do to get a better sound although I have been giving thought to getting rid of the Maggies because of the space they require and moving on to a more 'normal' speaker. I auditioned the Golden Ear Triton 2s and thought they were quite good as well as some Focal speakers. Not much selection here in Phoenix but one place did say they would allow me to audition the Tritons for 2 days to see how they sounded in my home which I thought was very generous but then again they knew I wasn't some audio idiot.

    Thanks for all of your help guys.
     
  10. 33na3rd

    33na3rd Forum Resident

    Location:
    SW Washington, USA
    That asymmetric set up is going to give you a bit of trouble, no mater what speaker you use. I don't know if you put some room treatment on the wall closest to the speaker, and then have a free standing panel the same distance from the other speaker would help or not. The Maggies sending out sound from front & back complicates things a bit more.

    As mentioned above, the square room should be avoided unless it's the only room available. My listening room is square--I've spent a lot of sweat, and a bit of money making it sound better. I used to have Acoustats, I'm pretty sure that the Maggies would not like the square room any better than they did.
    If you do try the square room, try the diagonal method mentioned above. Jim Smith of "Get Better Sound", talks about putting the listening chair 45 degrees out from a corner, and having the speakers near the middle of the two sidewalls that you would be facing.

    My square room sounds pretty good. But I had to heavily treat the room, and use near field speakers with a separate subwoofer, because there's no one spot where the bass and main speakers are optimized together.

    Those Triton's might be interesting because you can lower or raise the bass output. Maybe some more flexibility there?

    Good luck!

    PS--That's a very cool Avatar!
     
    The FRiNgE likes this.
  11. timind

    timind phorum rezident

    About a year ago I had to move my system in to a small (12x12) room when my daughter moved back home to help with my wife. The sound was pretty blah in there even after installing all of the treatments from my former room. With a newly purchased pair of MG12s with Sound Anchor stands I used a diagonal setup to get excellent sound. Vocal images are rock solid, perfectly centered when they should be. Instruments have very specific locations throughout the soundstage.

    It wasn't easy to get it just right. It took a lot of very minor adjustments to get those vocals locked in. The final 2 degree of toe in reduction to get Johnny Cash sounding like Johnny Cash. I also had to apply some tilt to the speakers, not sure why but it made a big difference.

    My only issue is their tendency to highlight the top end. I installed the 1.2 ohm resisters which helped. A larger value resistor, maybe 2 ohm, might get me exactly what I like.

    Now if you can't make any moves this won't help. Here's a pic anyway:

    [​IMG]

    Good luck.
     
    33na3rd likes this.
  12. timind

    timind phorum rezident

    [​IMG]
    In case my pic above isn't visible.
     
    The FRiNgE and 33na3rd like this.
  13. The FRiNgE

    The FRiNgE Forum Resident

    This is the diagonal placement 33na3rd mentioned above. In a small, square room, this may be the only option to obtain at least acceptable response. The slight tilt helps to scatter direct reflections off the back wall. Any method that helps scatter reflections in the room will improve room response. Nice Maggies, thanks for posting!

    I just noticed the thick pile carpeting and draperies. I mentioned above how much that can help in a small room. (or any room) Treatment of one wall, and floor (any two surfaces) will result in more desirable room acoustics.
     
    Fiddlefye likes this.
  14. Fiddlefye

    Fiddlefye Forum Resident

    Worked out for me in my square room with some Reference 3a mm de Capos.
     
    The FRiNgE likes this.
  15. 33na3rd

    33na3rd Forum Resident

    Location:
    SW Washington, USA
    I'm going to have to try that diagonal approach myself soon. That means the couch will have to come out of the room. Hmmm........

    timind, your system looks great!

    Thank you for sharing the image!
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page

molar-endocrine