Vinyl Grading -- thoughts

A 5 to 10 second play grade is really spot checking rather than a play grade. I almost always do similar spot checking myself. Just to check the general surface factor and to check questionable spots that are visible.

Noise floor is an issue on some pressings, but should be disclosed. Some late 60's - 1970 era RCA pressings leading up to Dynaflex are a good example. Brand new some have a degree of sandy or hissy sounding - the noise floor. Yet the sonics can be superb and that surface inaudible during playback. However I don't know how to grade that - its too subjective.

A 1st state UK -2 Dark Side Of The Moon is known for a having little surface because of the pressing. It would be inaccurate in my view to say that one in pristine literally unplayed condition is VG or VG+ simply because it has some audible surface heard in the banding. I'm not saying that a seller should not grade it VG if they feels thats honest or necessary, just that VG for an otherwise NM one is not really accurate. It should have two grades or just the visual grade and an explanation of the sonic characteristics the LP is known for.

In the end its all subjective. Whats 'good' resides in the mind of the individual.

Truly.....theres too many of them.

 

Great point. I think it's easy to lose sight of the fact that buyers have different standards. If I were a seller who received very few complaints about my grading practices, I'd see no reason to change anything. I might take a different approach for items that I thought would appeal primarily to collectors.

 

Gotta say, most buyers are very aware of condition across the board, and lowballers are by far the ones who complain most often (usually are looking for a free item, as the price vs. return cost is slanted against the seller). I will say though, a disproportionate amount of over-grading occurs in items marked NM that are actually VG+/VG. The level of dishonesty increases with potential gain.

 

Fussy exacting types come across to the general buyer / seller as eccentric. We're the outliers.

 

Could someone, please, precise in details the grading used in the US ? Thanks
I always read that US and UK grading are different.

 

I'm not aware of the differences. People in North America generally use the Goldmine system:
http://www.goldminemag.com/collector-resources/record-grading-101

It's been my understanding that Goldmine is commonly used in Europe as well.

 

I always considered Goldmine to be the standard, although it seems like it's becoming fairly common for sellers to devise their own grading systems. I've seen this on GEMM quite a bit.

To echo a previous poster, I appreciate it when there is some kind of description along with the grade. Even a couple of details are enough to make me choose a particular seller's copy of the item.

 

Thanks for the link. I thought Goldmine was the UK grading scale.
According to the Goldmine description VG-ish grades are too unclear and subjective: "some"scuffs, hairlines... is it 3 or 4 hairlines ? Or 30-40% of the record is damaged by scuffs/hairlines...

 

With a problem like "horning", resulting in smears, patterns, smudges, on most US lp's in the seventies they could only be graded as very good plus even though they play better.

 

Do you have a picture of thoses ? Because i have noticed two kind of marks that I have only encountered on US records.

 

Now that i do not buy records 'at a distance' no problems. The several local places i buy used records I can look at them, buy them and take them home and if i do not want them (for ANY reason) the places take them back no problems of any kind. (full refund or credit)
So no hassles. For folks buying records long distance... You have my deepest sympathies..

It is true I cannot find the greatest rarities..but I buy cheap records pretty exclusively anyway. Many for less than folks pay for shipping alone...

 

I suggest people study the UK Record Collector grading method. I know it is open to abuse but the descriptions for condition by referring to the degree of degradation imply that this is intended as a play grading system. Dead quite used vinyl exists were there is a flawless pressing and light play and these I would rate as near mint. I would only rate a new unplayed record as mint but of course playing will only reveal if it is a truly mint flawless example. Therefore sellers should always refund for any record without question though they are entitled to expect it's return.

 

When buying on Ebay or other online sources, as much attention should be paid to the seller's rating and what they have been selling as the stated record grading. If the person has as many beenie babies for sale as records, don't buy even if it says mint or mint -. People that are just yard sale 'pickers' don't generally have a clue what is mint or poor. Look for a seller that sells nothing but records, at least they SHOULD know what mint means. I hardly ever buy from Amazon, because they make it difficult to figure out who you are buying from (at least too difficult for me). I have found Musicstack to be a pretty good source for used records and the seller rating section is plain and easy.

 

I understand that online sellers can't listen to all the records they've listed - because it takes too much time. BUT I don't think that you can grade secondhand vinyl properly without playing it or at least giving people the opportunity to hear what it sounds like. It's like selling a car by how it looks. And it you haven't got a decent light - you can't see how it looks either...

Most sellers have a tendency to get disappointed with problems with records and try to show them in the best light (pardon the pun) so that they find a buyer / a decent price. I sometimes err towards this, almost naturally - but I stop myself going there. I'm kept in check by the fact that, as a vinyl buyer there is nothing worse than disappointment - you just naturally feel you've been ripped off when that NM record is only VG+. I don't want anybody who would buy off of me to feel disappointed - so I try to write a thorough description, so they can technically "grade" it themselves and have some idea about how it will sound.

I virtually always play grade - which does show up some unexpected surprises - poor surfaces can sound pretty good and clean surfaces can sound awful.

I detest the UK Record Collector Guide Grading system. A "Good" record means, in fact, that it is useless - so what's the point in calling it good? "Very Good" can mean anything from unplayed (MINT) with a warp to a record that's been played a lot and is scratched but still sounds great. It is more geared towards old school collectors of records (those who are after file-able copies, rather than listening ones). It's all very, very vague and ready to be abused.

I also dislike the way that sellers will not say if a record is stereo processed or a suspected fold, but will say that it's a STERLING cut, has first stampers, or a spelling mistake.

I talk here about "serious" record sellers. If you are buying some records that somebody has just pulled out of the attic and they say "look MINT" - you are looking for trouble - POT LUCK!

 

I wish I came across more sellers like yourself. As someone else pointed out, perhaps the people who are really picky about condition are in the minority. If most people were disappointed by grading, you'd think that sellers would be forced to change their ways. Either that or they get so many online takers that they don't have to rely on repeat business.

Come to think of it, I don't know if I've ever bought twice from the same seller. I'd like to find a few "go-to" sellers, but if you're looking for a certain title, you have to take what's available. If I do have a good experience, I'll browse through their offerings to see if they have anything else that I want.

 

I for one would like to know where all of these NM records are coming from. I collected records through the 90's when people were dumping their collections and quickly learned how to pick the VG+ or better records (most were $3 back then). But MN records were always rarer than hens teeth.

I've opened a few hundred new records and very few I could call NM. If you open a new record and it's perfectly centred. flat, mark free and has no non-fill or other defects you should buy a lottery ticket.

I've been listing some of my more valuable records and I haven't found a NM record yet.

 

Dale, your observation regarding Near Mint is a reality check. Although, truth be told, vinyl in Europe generally had higher quality and also looked better. Only Japan pressings bought new would then qualify as Near Mint. And what about those German Ariola pressings with printed inner sleeves where you could not get the -static as hell - LP out of the inner sleeve without causing numerous hairlines? To be honest you need descriptions in addition to grades. And what about a label like Factory records in the UK? It was not uncommon to see those brand new Joy Division albums damaged in the shops. Some looked like ****. Again, you need descriptions and additional background information to make an informed decision.

 

Play grading can be hard to trust as well. I recently upgraded to a micro line stylus and a few records that previously played quiet are now noisier because of the finer stylus reaching a different part of the groove.

 

This is an excellent post and usually over-looked, especially by those who are somewhat new to buying vinyl. A play-grade done with a $100 cartridge versus a $500 cartridge is not going to be the same. There are exceptions of course, but I think generally speaking it holds a lot of truth.

 

In addition, is it fair to play-grade on ****ty equipment and the treble turned down?

 

My experience with the fine line type of stylus is the lessening of noise / noises. Because they trace the groove information more accurately they tend to dig up dirt that a conical or elliptical doesn't reach; this can sometimes be seen as a fine micro dust that gets kicked up onto the surface, and subsequent plays become much quieter, all the way to extremely quiet.

Its possible what you are hearing are the particular sonic characteristics of the cartridge you have as it works with the other components in your system. Same stylus 'shapes' on different cartridges can have noticeably different results in playback.

 

The majority do play much quieter than before. But there are a handful of times where I've had to revise the grading on my personal catalogue after listening with the more revealing stylus!

 

Another peeve of mine -- sellers shouldn't brag about it being "still in shrink wrap" when the seal has been broken and the record taken out.

 

The seller should make clear that it's opened shrink, but that's a detail that is appealing to some buyers. It goes toward the condition of the cover, but not the record.

 

I've always heard that that contributes to warpage.

Although I really don't want it tattered and torn, I really couldn't give a rat's petunia to what either the cover or the record looks like -- I want it to sound good. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the whole purpose of a recording to listen to it?