Anti-skate with VPI

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by ghost rider, Aug 23, 2014.

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  1. ghost rider

    ghost rider Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Bentonville AR
  2. numanoid

    numanoid Forum Resident

    Location:
    Valparaiso, IN
    The whole VPI anti skate thing is weird to me. The manufacturer says no way... But every person who knows about cartridges says absolutely. It's frustrating.
     
  3. The FRiNgE

    The FRiNgE Forum Resident

    I do not understand why VPI would print a warning against a grooveless antiskate adjustment? The grooveless record produces less friction, so less antiskate adjustment is needed to keep the stylus still. The grooveless method is not a the best way to set the antiskate by all means, since the groove produces more friction.

    But again, why warn against a method that indicates LESS antiskate compensation than actually needed?

    My method is unusual, probably will not be well received. The norm of setting the aiti-skate to your tracking force is ok, however your VPI doesn't have an anti-skate scale. (I assume it doesn't) What works best for me is to simply lower the stylus on a spinning record near the outer groove, maybe a few mm's in. I observe the cantilever just as the stylus touches the groove. If the cantilever deflects outward, pointing more to the outer edge, more anti-skate is needed. If the cantilever deflects to the spindle, less anti-skate is needed. The anti-skate is right as the cantilever remains centered as the stylus settles in the groove.

    I realise this may raise some confusion and questions. The deflection of the cantilever will be in the opposite direction as the skating force. That is, as the arm wants to skate in, the cantilever deflects outward. (for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction) Skating force is caused by friction and headshell offset. (a straight headshell would cause zero skating) The friction "tugs" on the stylus, and cantilever, tending to forcibly rotate the arm at the pivot. If the cantilever were hard mounted without any compliance, it would remain straight. Since all cantilevers have compliance, they move. The skating force and friction cause it to deflect. With no anti-skate compensation applied, the cantilever angles outward.

    The proof of this is the record changer which has no anti-skating, and always the cantilever develops a lean over time. This is due to the skating force, and fatigue of the suspension. An old stylus without anti-skate will almost always lean, with the lean toward the outside of the record. Place that stylus on a spinning record, it will deflect in the direction that caused the lean.

    Trying to make sense of anti-skate, and the puzzle of the VPI instructions,
    Steve VK
     
  4. The FRiNgE

    The FRiNgE Forum Resident

    Ideally we want the cantilever to remain centered as the stylus tracks the groove. Any deviation from center, then the alignment of the stylus will be incorrect. All of the trouble setting up the cartridge, alignment of the cartridge to whatever protractor used, flies out the window as skating force causes the cantilever to deflect. This effect will be more noticeable on higher compliance cartridges, and broken in cartridges. Stiffer suspensions will not deflect as much to the skating force, if at all. For example the popular Shure M97 XE is a high compliance cartridge, so its cantilever will deflect noticeably at 1.5 grams, less noticeably at 1 gram. As tracking force increases, skating force also increases, and so does the deflection of the cantilever.

    The correct anti-skate compensation is critical to your cartridge alignment. This is a grossly overlooked point. This is also the major factor in the correction of sibilance, oft the recommendation to play with the anti-skate until it goes away. The reason is that "playing" with the anti-skate by ear results in the correct anti-skate, as the "sibilance" cleans up.... the cantilever will be centered, so the stylus correctly aligned with the groove! Sibilance is the product of mistracking. A major cause of mistracking is not enough vertical tracking force. By increasing the force, skating is also increased, causing MORE misalignment of the stylus. So it should be no mystery why so many hifi enthusiasts struggle with sibilance.

    Of course, sometimes it's just not curable, sometimes just a bad stylus, or bad record.

    As the anti-skating compensation is set by eye. rather than by ear, and rather than by default of manufacturer recommendation, the problems with mistracking and sibilance related to cantilever lean will just go away!
    Steve VK
     
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2014
  5. ghost rider

    ghost rider Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Bentonville AR
    One thing before, my 1st setup the dealer calibrated it the needle often jumped off the edge of the record. I had to be very careful to not drop it close to the edge. It got better when I calibrated it and now with the fishing line employed it drops perfectly smooth. It does not move in or out when it hits the record.
     
    The FRiNgE likes this.
  6. The FRiNgE

    The FRiNgE Forum Resident

    There is the tendency to skate in at the groove guard, the outermost edge. This is normal, as slope of the groove guard causes that. Of course, the stylus should never skate off the edge.. that would be way too much anti-skate compensation. So, this is the reason I suggest to check the cantilever a few millimeters in from the edge. The antiskate can also be checked at the null points, not a bad idea! Skating forces are greatest at the outer circumference of the record, least near the label. A well designed anti-skating system compensates for this.
     
  7. ghost rider

    ghost rider Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Bentonville AR
    Bill I did get to talk with Jim on Sunday. What a great guy and he was already in my inbox. I bought some stuff from him awhile back. He was full of ideas but if I'm really lucky he may be up in the Chicago area sometime next year and if he does he will set up my TT.

    Thanks for giving me the heads-up to give him a call.:righton:
     
    Bill Hart likes this.
  8. mcbrion

    mcbrion Forum Resident

    Location:
    Connecticut
    VPI now has a forum on its site. You might want to inquire there. That is more direct than VPI having to monitor all sites in order to find out that people have concerns with their cartridges, which is legitimate. Harry Weisfeld answered a question about azimuth. I"m sure he'll be happy to clear up any statements they've made which could be misunderstood..
     
  9. David Johnson

    David Johnson Forum Resident

    Location:
    Atlanta Georgia
    And that forum on their site would be where? I see HW's corner but no forum.
     
  10. vpiindustries

    vpiindustries Forum Resident

    Location:
    Cliffwood, NJ, USA
    Poorly worded is exactly it. The problem that we have had (and still have) is situations where the customer will flat out rip out wiring or break part of their turntable by trying all sorts of measurements/setup techniques. So think of that sentence as more of... "If you rip out your wire while trying to check the anti skate you will void your warranty". I have been in the process of re-writing a lot of the manuals but there aren't enough hours in the day.

    Don't worry I still pop on this forum when I can :) our forum is for a more direct VPI focus but most of all to have direct contact with Harry, he has no urge to brows around anymore.
     
    moogt3 and rob303 like this.
  11. David.m

    David.m Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    I only learnt about the finer points of this when I went from a Simplicity arm to the Simplicity II, the newly developed arm bearings have such low friction that the arm moves outwards till it finds a lead-in groove every time I lower the stylus onto the LP. Also lowering the stylus onto a stationary LP resulted in the cantilever bending ever so slightly off-centre due to the outward force of the arm, I was sure there was too much anti-skate compensation (it is pre-set). After some communication with the distributor & Thales I discovered the affects of tracking the groove in a rotating LP, looking head-on (the Lyra Atlas cantilever is completely exposed & easy to see) the cantilever is perfectly straight & centred when tracking the moving record (likewise across the whole LP) so obviously the amount of anti-skate is right.
     
    The FRiNgE likes this.
  12. EdogawaRampo

    EdogawaRampo Senior Member

    OK, I've read through the thread but I'm still pretty confused. I haven't been using anti-skate, have had no problems...but using anti-skate will improve my VPI's SQ performance?
     
  13. David.m

    David.m Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sydney, Australia
    Without anti-skate your stylus is obviously exerting greater force to the inside of the grooves, there would have to be some affect on the wear of both the groove and stylus (exactly how much I don't know). As for sound quality, you're not noticing any problems though I would think there would have to be some issues at least with music that has big bass and/or dynamics. You would think that cart manufacturers, when making VTF recommendations, do so assuming the cart is operating with correct anti-skate.
     
  14. EdogawaRampo

    EdogawaRampo Senior Member

    I didn't notice any untoward sound problems whatsoever.

    But going through some other threads on another forum or two I decided I'd better try out the anti-skate so I put it on.

    I do notice the stylus locks into the groove more quickly and solidly. On the record I'm playing now it locked in the instant it was lowered onto the record. Not really noticing any difference in the sound, however.
     
  15. dianos

    dianos Forum Resident

    Location:
    The North
    It's interesting to see that a manufacturer so often gets away by removing features claiming "It doesn't matter" when the truth is "we need to remove it to make it cheaper/earn more money". o_O
     
    Upinsmoke likes this.
  16. EdogawaRampo

    EdogawaRampo Senior Member

    I agree, but it does seem like there is some lack of consensus on the issue. I always thought of anti-skate as simply a safety measure against the tonearm skating across the record. So if a tonearm didn't do that, as my VPI didn't, well I guess I assumed the manufacturer was right in saying it wasn't necessary. Guess I hadn't given it much thought. I'm giving it thought now.
     
  17. Upinsmoke

    Upinsmoke Well-Known Member

    Location:
    SE PA
    Basically the twist in the tonearm cable is sufficient to apply force to the point where it compensates as an anti-skate adjustment.
    What Harry designed basically requires a bit of a leap of faith. I've encountered no real issues to write about with anti-skate and have not even hooked up the device. It's kind of kludgy (yea, it's not a word - but I like it) so it just sits there doing nothing.

    Best thing you can do for a VPI is get a better alignment tool for it. Either a Mint or a Dr F. protractor. I've had much better results than using the supplied jig.
    There's some things about the VPI designs that can really drive you a bit buggy. It's not for the faint of heart to say the least. It's not that easy to extract the maximum amount of detail from without some sweat equity from the user.

    I do believe if you are able to master the intricacies of setting up a VPI table you can pretty much setup just about any other table without fear or major concern.
     
    kannibal and Bill Hart like this.
  18. Upinsmoke

    Upinsmoke Well-Known Member

    Location:
    SE PA
    On a side note I think that Harry came up with a rather unique design with his uni-pivot arm. When you do finally get it dialed in right it has a great sound. It's just getting to that point where it can suck and drive you a bit crazy in the process.

    Bill Firebaugh is another person that really intrigues me in his designs. I think that if I could step back a couple of months I would have gone with a Well Tempered or Pro-ject 10 or 12. The mahogany and olive wood finishes are killer on the Pro-jects, not to mention they have a great sound.

    As for now I'm going to save my pennies for a SME.
     
    Last edited: Aug 29, 2014
  19. Slick Willie

    Slick Willie Decisively Indecisive

    Location:
    sweet VA.
    First I will state that I have a lot of respect for the VPI line and the company. Second, I have no outside support close by for table "help". After starting off with Music hall 2.2, I decided to upgrade to a 7.1 from Music Hall. It seemed familiar, simple to maintain/use, it, in my mind at least, seemed to be designed to stay out of the way. Then the upgrade bug hit me again and the Classic line was number one on my short list. Then I studied that arm and seen that add on's were offered to make adjustments and that anti skate was not considered of great import. These scared me away. As an end user, I do not want something I have to tinker with or find someone one can. Even the concept of mass loading concerns me. Would more weight just be harder on the bearings and associated parts? While I am far from an engineer, things do have to make sense to me. Even the Rega line with the extra bracing, glass platters and new/radical designs every few years concern me. Now my short list is back to my comfort level - a MH 11.1 or Project equivalent. Am I wrong in my thinking? Won't be the first time!:cool:
     
  20. Upinsmoke

    Upinsmoke Well-Known Member

    Location:
    SE PA
    Nope. Not wrong at all. I had the pleasure of listening to the Pro-ject 10. Great table. There is also the 12 of that for a bit more.

    While Rega changes their models with some degree of frequency I've not heard a bad Rega table yet.
     
    Slick Willie likes this.
  21. TeflonScoundrel

    TeflonScoundrel Forum Resident

    Location:
    USA
    This is pretty much where I am right now. I purchased a Scout 1 a little over a year ago as my first new turntable after using my parents old hand me down Kenwood KP2022A. Over the last year, I have fiddled with the setup of the tonearm and cartridge and antik-skate many times, and unfortunately I am still not sure if I have it all optimized. During that time I have purchased and installed the counter-intuitive as well as a MintLP Best protractor to help with my setup woes. I think it is better than it was at first, but I still wonder if it's as good as it is capable of. As someone new to turntable setup I have found itchallenging to coordinate all the variables with the uni-pivot design.

    I have given serious consideration to selling it and just getting a Rega RP6 to simplify everything and hopefully relax about the setup and just listen to music. Still...there are times when it sounds amazing, so I haven't gotten to the point of giving up on it yet. If I keep stressing about it though, then I'll probably have to make the change to make sure I'm having the fun I seek from this hobby.
     
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  22. Slick Willie

    Slick Willie Decisively Indecisive

    Location:
    sweet VA.
    I feel your pain, and is why I did not go the VPI route, even after hearing how awesome they sound. Eventually I would have to change carts or "tune it". I like simple as I have no local support.
     
  23. numanoid

    numanoid Forum Resident

    Location:
    Valparaiso, IN
    Same here. Everytime I make any adjustment, I wonder if it's correct, or too much, or not enough, or, or... It would be nice to not have something so tweaky. To make matters worse, I got a cartridge that is also very tweaky, so it's a match made in audiophile hell.
     
    Slick Willie likes this.
  24. Slick Willie

    Slick Willie Decisively Indecisive

    Location:
    sweet VA.
    I must say, ya'll are making me feel better about my "no VPI" route. I was given such strong recommendations by dealers and online users (all new converts), that is is refreshing to hear from users a few years (?) in. A thread I am glad I stumbled upon.
     
  25. ghost rider

    ghost rider Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Bentonville AR
    This has been my experience. I have had basically good sound however it has been setup. The 1st alignment done by the dealer it frequently skated off the record. To be honest I never knew it was because of the alignment. The 2nd by be but without anti-skate it would skate toward the center quickly and often skipped in having to be re-qued.
    Now that same setup drops butter smooth with the anti-skate
     
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