"Mingus Ah Um" 180g 45rpm 2LP currently shipping!

I for one won't bet against your suspicion.

 

You can get 10% off at Elusive Disc. I just ordered along with Live Belafonte and the Tito Puente box.

 

Acoustic Sounds also has 10% off this holiday. I ordered three Music Matters 45s with the discount, and they don't normally discount 45 RPM titles.

 

As usual for MOV, their Mingus Ah Um reissue on 33rpm LP is not all analog. The sticker on the front does mention "original & unedited versions mixed from original 3-track tapes" but this is has no meaning regarding the actual mastering or, even less, the cut being all analog or not. Comparing the MOV reissue to the ORG 45rpm makes very little sense as these two products target very different audiences and have quite different goals as to what they want to accomplish. Not only the production methods are completely different, the sonic result are worlds apart... the ORG 45rpm reissue of Mingus Ah Um sounds glorious and is the one to have if sound quality is the top priority

 

I got the ORG 45rpm. Love it. It's a big chunk of vinyl

 

That doesn't make any sense. Why would they lie about one album yet be honest about the rest?

 

I just got a copy of the ORG 45rpm. Overall, it sounds very nice. The cymbals seem a bit bright, usually I prefer a mastering style more like the recent Kevin Gray cut Music Matters reissues.

Listening to side D for the first time, I absolutely hear the noise you are describing.

 

The Classic Records and the Sony SACD are bright as well. I'm not sure if they added treble to those versions, or that's just how the tape sounds. The 6-eye mono and stereo sound more natural than any reissue I've heard, but they don't have the resolution and dynamics of the ORG. That's why I like to have the 6-eye mono to complement it.

 

I would love to have a clean playing six-eye mono, but they don't exactly grow on trees.

In the meanwhile, it's nice to have the ORG 45rpm. My guess is that the ballads like "Goodbye Pork Pie Hat" are unlikely to be significantly improved from what the ORG has to offer.

It could be interesting to hear what other great vinyl mastering engineers (Kevin Gray, Doug Sax) might do with the Ah Um tapes in their style. And perhaps how 'bout a special edition made from the unedited full length takes? One can dream...

 

You can get them all on the 1979 double LP "Nostalgia in Times Square".

 

I'm sure there will be another reissue of Mingus Ah Um in the future, it's one of those albums they love to reissue

In general I will agree I prefer SH/KG's mastering style though I think some of the Music Matters 45 and AP 45 are just as bright. One example is Kenny Burrell/John Coltrane AP 45 which I have on Tape Project as well. Both versions share the same tonality through out. An educated guess and only speaking in general, I think these 45s are letting us hear the full bandwidth of what is on the tape.

The Mosaic vinyl box of Mingus' CBS recordings also has the full unedited tracks.

 

Many thanks for the tip! I was able to snag a white label promo copy of Nostalgia in Times Square and it's great to hear the unedited takes on vinyl. And the audio quality is pretty decent.

 

I just sold my ORG reissue and will stay with the old 33 and 45RPM Classic Records reissue of BG inspite of the improved Dynamics on the ORG.
The ORG is simply way to bright and artificial sounding for my sence of "halfwise natural sound". I'm not shure which ears BG put on for mastering this, even on his own Label (isn't it?) so that must be his taste of tonality...strange that he made all his former Classic Records masterings even brighter on ORg and AP while those of his masterings first reissued on ORG are dry, but more neutral sounding.

 

It's always a matter of choice and personal preferences, perfection is indeed a rare thing (or was it Beauty Mr. Ornette Coleman?)

There many factors contributing to our perceived "natural sound", hundreds of things actually, and we're all more or less sensitive to some more than others... for me the missing dynamics on the Classic have a bigger impact than the high frequency boost on the ORG, and I might add that I don't think that the high frequencies are really blown out of proportion, nothing like that, it's just a little more than ideal.

For my ears, horns lacking projection are more artificial, and bass with diminished low frequency tonality is a broken instrument, both have a deeper impact in my listening experience than the high frequencies being a little higher than usual. But we're not all the same when it comes to hearing and sound references, so this is just my personal way of working out sound

 

Yes sure, it's a matter of preferences. I'm just somehow not willing to accept such kind of masterings, knowing how much better it could be (and IMO these inferior ones are the few, the more perfect ones are the many).
When I really want to listen to the music of These CBS sessions, I pull out the Mosaic box, even if it's again less dynamic and 3d than the old Classic Records 33 or 45RPM release. But the Mosaic is simply well balanced with flat sounding treble, even if not max extended. If I Switch back to the BG masterings from that one, I can hardly believe how wrong the Sound rg. cymbals. BG ruined many remasterings in that way to me, even if they sound really nice (if still not with full tonal colours) below the high frequency area. Even the Mingus Dynasty on Pure pleasure mastered by Ray Staff in London is not good to my ears.

All the nice dynamics and 3dimensionality of These reissues don't help me when some instruments don't sound real and I'm at the same time constantly hearing these faults. Kevin Gray showed how some of such Columbia six eyes can sound if done right.

 

I can understand that and I agree with many of your points, blue

 

I just compared them again, I don't think the ORG is any more dynamic than the Classic Records 45 rpm. The much brighter presentation makes it sound that way, but it's artificial.

A friend of mine (the US importer of a well known European cable company) told me that Original Recording Group (not ORG Music) primary market is Asia and has their releases mastered to suit their tastes.

What is your preferred Mingus Dynasty? I have the Pure Pleasure as well, but it's been a while since I've played it. A shame that this album tends to be forgotten

 

ORG's primary market is definitely the USA and everything else is secondary (exactly the same as most US based audiophile labels) and there is absolutely no mastering "tailored" for any specific taste on ORG or ORG Music except the taste of Bernie Grundman who usually does the mastering for both of them.

Let's not start a myth here, ok?

Listen to Friday Night In San Francisco, not a hint of brightness there, and it would be easy to add just like it was done to the SACD and other digital releases with bright EQ to increase the sense of detail and "air", Bernie didn't do that... and I'm eternally thankful for that

Or Blood Sweat and Tears... and many more. There is no "brightness" pattern to ORG releases at all... Check the dynamic swing on Diana Krall Live in Paris... or the amazing punch on Buckley's Grace, not bright at all... but dynamic as it never was before...

Many ORG Music releases sound brighter than many ORG releases, try Ornette Coleman LP's on ORG Music and check how bright they sound... but then, other ORG Music LP's have no brightness...

There is no such pattern, it seems to me it's much more dependent on what the actual master tape sounds like, as that would explain why these masterings from the same person using the same gear actually sound so different... and it also tells me that the job is being well done, they should sound different, and they do.

 

I am not trying to start any myths This is first hand what he has told me about Original Recordings Group and FIM. They are both American companies, but I imagine it's significantly easier to run a reissue label in the US given it's where nearly all the majors are situated and where tapes are stored.

Though I don't find ORG's reissues of John Coltrane and Johnny Hartman or Live At The Village Vanguard to be bright.

Since you run an online record store I'd be curious have you spoke to the owner of ORG and heard other wise?

 

hvbias, I have spoken to one of the owners of ORG several times, but not about that because it was never up for debate or an issue to be considered at all... it never even crossed my mind that they would do such a thing, I think it doesn't make much sense and I'm not even questioning that the Asian Market listeners would for some reason prefer boosted high frequencies these days for audiophile LP's cut from Original Master Tapes... I seriously doubt that, not the Asian customers I have that's for sure That is a remnant "idea" from the 70's and 80's when mastering in Asian Territories was being made from second generation copies (or worse) and such EQ options were used to somehow try to compensate for that, bad move indeed... but not really what serious Asian listeners prefer

Like I've said, if you listen to enough Bernie Grundman cuts from Classic Records era and now more recently for ORG and ORG Music, you'll certainly reach the same conclusion as I have, there is no "signature" sound across all releases, ORG releases are not always bright (actually most are not), that's why I've called it a myth, because it can be easily confirmed just by playing the records and comparing to other well known versions

The person who told you that, I'm sure with the best intentions, was probably referring to a specific release maybe? Or even referring to the previous generation of "Ultimate Editions" from ORG that were pressed at Pallas in Germany (the latest ORG series is all RTI USA pressed)?

There are some significant differences between that Ultimate Series and the current ORG releases (and I say this only based on my hearing)... I did find some of those from the Pallas period to sound much brighter... one good example would be "Gerry Mulligan Meets Ben Webster", it is definitely brighter than what I would expect from that LP, compare it to the Speakers Corner version and you'll know what I'm talking about... (and now thinking of it, maybe Oscar Peterson Night Train as well, but I can't remember exactly now).

But really, this is a non-issue, if we look for it we'll find some "brighter" or "duller" albums from other mastering houses, actually there are a few hot topics discussing just that here in SHF these days...

I think ORG does not deserve to get a "bright mastering" tag on their name and reputation, there are plenty really amazing ORG releases that deny such unfair tag

 

Listening to the 45 RPM version from ORG right now, and it's true: at least on "Better Git It In Your Soul" the cymbals are horribly bright. I can live with a certain degree of brightness and sometimes like the additional "kick" it gives, but this is definitely too much. Not to blame solely Bernie Grundman, I must add that the original stereo tape does have a great deal of inherent brightness to begin with. How do I know? I don't know for sure, but the 90's Mastersound CD sounds almost identical to the ORG in the upper frequency range (the ORG being even a bit brighter). So my guess is, since many Columbia recordings from that era are known to be quite bright, that Grundman didn't attenuate the treble enough or worse added a bit. Everything after the first track is much more listenable, but I would have preferred a less forward presentation like on the Legacy 2CD from Sony.

 

I'm a bit late to the Ah Um party but I have a ORG copy on its way as we speak. Read great reviews for it elsewhere but now i'm wishing I had checked here as well, my personal preference is for a not so bright sound.

 

I just again can only recommend to avoid all ORG and AP Grundman reissues that were released previously by Classic Records, as they came out quite unlistenable much brighter (also the classical releases). I also have many listenable and many great Grundman recordings, even some quite dull sounding ones on top end. The problem is, you never know what you get. Different than any other remastering engineer I experienced, he seems to have no consistent style (regarding treble).

 

Pls forgive my ignorance, but what is SSD?

 

I don't get this... is there supposed to be a mastering style to condition treble sound always the same way for all recordings?

Grundman mastering will not always sound the same, and that's just what is to be expected for different recordings, this is someone with several decades of mastering work and such a huge scope of different music/recordings.

None of the great mastering engineers have a "consistent style" in terms final sound, that would negate the main purpose of their work/art.

Are we complaining about getting the sound as it is from the masters, and not a sound that is processed/equalized to become something else?