Why does history treat some bands better than others?

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Jgirar01, Aug 30, 2014.

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  1. Driver 8

    Driver 8 Senior Member

    I presume you are talking about new CD stock?

    In a used record store, it's easy to gauge the winners and losers, by the exact opposite method: in my local shop, the Led Zeppelin and Pink Floyd and Talking Heads sections are empty, because as soon as a used record by one of these artists comes in, it sells. By contrast, the Yes, Uriah Heep, and Emerson, Lake, and Palmer sections are overflowing, because even a $2 to $5 a pop, no one wants to buy their records, while a beat-up copy of Zeppelin's Presence priced at $20 will sell in one day. Actually, my local store took a lot of the ELP/Yes/Uriah Heep/Loverboy/Peter Frampton-type stuff and put it in a separate room where everything is between $1 and $3. I guess that's the Hall of Losers. :)
     
  2. Roger Thornhill

    Roger Thornhill Senior Member

    Location:
    Ilford, Essex, UK
    I had thought it obvious but for your benefit.

    For the last time, try reading up on Dylan and The Band getting together in Malibu in the summer of 1973. It has about 100 times more significance to PW and the tour of early-1974 than being in a concert organised by an ex-Beatle from a couple of years before.

    This is such common knowledge I'm surprised that you're unaware of it.
     
  3. Zeki

    Zeki Forum Resident

    Speaking of "Slow Ride", I happened to have lunch near the 'ol Silver Platters so dropped in to do an inventory count. Sort of a hard count for Seattle (not applicable to any other region of the country or world, etc etc).

    I tried to recall artists referenced within this thread, the premise being that if we all know the names, they must have had a popular peak at some point. Anyway, obviously it is just for fun list (counting items with box still counting as 1).
    The Beatles- 121
    Bob Dylan -108
    U2 - 74
    Rolling Stones - 65
    Elton John -60
    Madonna - 45
    Grateful Dead -38
    King Crimson -32
    ELO - 29
    Led Zeppelin -29
    Jethro Tull - 28
    YES - 28
    Jeff Beck -25
    KISS - 22
    Steve Miller Band - 20
    Genesis - 19
    Velvet Underground - 19
    Kinks - 17
    Styx - 14
    Supertramp - 13
    UFO - 13
    GFR - 12
    Uriah Heep - 10
    Peter Frampton - 8
    Free - 6
    Foghat -5
    I intended to just check a couple and then it kinda snowballed. Then, I meant to count ABB and REO Speedwagon, but forgot. And just now I realized I forgot The Monkees.

    It doesn't mean a thing but this is perhaps one way we would have judged an artist's popularity, pre-internet.

    Note: in an earlier post I had said there must have been 30 UH. Now only 10? A sudden rush to obtain Uriah Heep?! I have no idea.

    Also, gotta admit I was extremely surprised at the Zeppelin stock. But that is what I counted. Maybe those flew out of the store as well.

    Edit. Just realized I didnt count Deep Purple or Black Sabbath! Damn. It wasn't deliberate.
     
  4. misterdecibel

    misterdecibel Bulbous Also Tapered

    So, twenty years from now, is there going to be a big reissue/remaster campaign for the Nickelback catalog?
     
  5. AudiophilePhil

    AudiophilePhil Senior Member

    Location:
    San Diego, CA
    +1 and Rolling Stone magazine and the Rock and Roll Hall of Shame
     
  6. S. P. Honeybunch

    S. P. Honeybunch Presidente de Kokomo, Endless Mikelovemoney

    I'm just a humble American Joe like Zimmerman:angel::cool:, sir. Please do not berate me in front of the others due to my superior knowledge of all things Beatles:tiphat:.
    If I want to listen to the schoolmaster:hide:, I'll listen to my Pink Floyd CDs.
     
  7. search&destroy

    search&destroy Well-Known Member

    some have re-writes....some don't
     
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  8. Guadalahonky

    Guadalahonky Forum Resident

    Everything you see or hear or experience in any way at all is specific to you. You create a universe by perceiving it, so everything in the universe you perceive is specific to you.” – Douglas Adams

    Perception is reality, and things such album cover artwork, songs, concepts, hairstyles, and clothing....they all equal a perception of an artist. All are choices, some are timeless and others do not age well, and yet others end up looking flat out ridiculous.

    Billy Squier managed to torpedo his own career with one music video. I'm pretty sure most Rush fans blush when they look at the back cover of 2112.......That group photo has not aged well. But Rush has made so many brilliant choices, they never skipped a beat.

    By contrast, I don't know if Pink Floyd or Led Zeppelin ever took a false step, IMHO.

    Another for instance, I was a huge Sweet fan in 1974 (as a 3rd grader). I recently saw a photo of Andy Scott:

    [​IMG]
    Now THIS is a bad choice. Andy looks flat out ridiculous.

    Again, all these choices, good or bad, add up to one individual's perception of the artist.
     
  9. The Spaceman

    The Spaceman Forum Resident

    And Classic Rock radio. The real reason is that History is very narrow and most people's music tastes are narrow. Is it any shock that these three things sync up perfectly? What's sad is that we accept it as the way it should be.
     
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  10. lschwart

    lschwart Senior Member

    Location:
    Richmond, VA
    I have no idea why that means. History is constantly being written and rewritten. You have a beef with a generally accepted idea about what's good and what's not, you play stuff for people and/or you argue with people about it and try to turn them on or change their minds. I'd never really given much thought to the virtues of Savoy Brown or Uriah Heep until they came up in this thread, and I've been enjoying their music a lot for a week now. So that's a small change. Happens all the time, and sometimes it can snowball under the right conditions. That's actually how cultural history happens. It's not just some tyranny of the narrow-minded and venal. Especially right now when more and more people listen how they want to what they want and radio programmers have nothing to do with it. Who knows what will happen tomorrow, but I'm pretty comforted by the fairly wide-ranging tastes of the students I encounter (those who care about music at all).

    L.
     
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  11. misterdecibel

    misterdecibel Bulbous Also Tapered

    But Classic Rock Radio plays the hell out of Boston/Styx/REO/Kansas/Seger/Skynyrd, none of which have been treated particularly well by time or the critics.
     
  12. Murph

    Murph Enjoy every sandwich!

    There are bands that are ground breaking or genre creating that will last a long time. The bands you mention (although I wouldn't include Purple) are 2nd to 3rd tier rock bands. It doesn't mean they didn't create some great rock songs - it just means they weren't very original. In my circle (NY), those bands were known only for their "hits", if at all. Savoy Brown sold out huge arenas????
     
  13. The Spaceman

    The Spaceman Forum Resident

    Obviously they've been treated well by time or they wouldn't be radio staples would they?
     
  14. Scott in DC

    Scott in DC Forum Resident

    Location:
    Washington, DC
    Are more average Americans going to know songs like Venus in Furs and Heroin off of the Velvet Underground with Nico than would know Frampton's Show Me the Way or SMB's Fly Like an Eagle?

    You already know the answer.

    Scott
     
  15. Raunchnroll

    Raunchnroll Senior Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    Whats this winners and losers business? :) The nature of what sells readily -and what doesn't- depends on a lot of factors. Its really just market evaluation based on availability and demand...and of course vinyl being a niche market. Led Zep and Pink Floyd do sell to a broader audience but thats because they're hot right now. Also, its only their primary canon that moves quickly. I imagine the Zep bins there, as here, have spare copies of Coda and Song Remains The Same. And the Uriah Heep bins probably have no copies of the key early albums, which do move. Heep didn't sell near as much as Zep or Floyd so their key albums are scarcer to find. ELP and Yes sold at a similar level so the numbers of albums are out there, but not being 'hot' like Zep, they're more readily available. Yet good condition copies of their key albums sell regularly. Frampton and Loverboy (why Loverboy? doesn't fit, why not The Romantics?) there is little demand. Humble Pie with Frampton....another matter. Those do sell.
     
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  16. Zeki

    Zeki Forum Resident

    Every place is different. I'm with you in not placing Savoy Brown in huge arenas, but I grew up as an American in Japan. I saw their albums on occasion but they weren't big. Purple and Heep, though, that's another story in Japan. Huge.

    I found this newspaper clipping included as part of Uriah Heep's very 'eavy, very 'umble 2003 Sanctuary reissue: "...Volume, stolen riffs from truly heavy bands, and a monster hype campaign do not a supergroup make; groups be warned. If you're looking for heaviness, then there are probably several albums by Beck, Zeppelin, Who, Mountain, Velvet Underground, Cream and Deep Purple that you don't have in your collection." This is included as part of the packaging, so shows they have a sense of humor! :help::D (I pressed that first icon by mistake!)

    Edit: realized I'd counted the Gentle Giant cd's as well: 10
     
  17. misterdecibel

    misterdecibel Bulbous Also Tapered

    Not at all. Terrestrial radio is a dead medium, and I don't think that playlists reflect public tastes very much at all.
     
  18. Oatsdad

    Oatsdad Oat, Biscuits, Abbie & Mitzi: Best Dogs Ever

    Location:
    Alexandria VA
    In other words: "I have no valid arguments so I'll toss out insults instead"...
     
  19. Driver 8

    Driver 8 Senior Member

    Not winners and losers in the sense of critics anointing the greatest band ever, just my observations based on working and shopping in used record stores as to what people today actually buy and are interested in. Despite my poking fun at prog from time to time, I have pretty big collection of prog albums that I picked up for $2 to $4 a pop because no one, in my area at least, cares about any of those bands at all: there are ten copies of every Yes album in the bins at any given moment, and you can pick the best one for $4. This just isn't the case with Zeppelin, as I noted above; crappy copies of their albums are priced at $20 and sell instantly. And, yes, Coda sells too. Rightly or wrongly, Zeppelin are winning with the general public in 2014 in the sense that their records sell in the used market. For whatever reason, their music has retained its appeal with contemporary young record buyers in a way that Uriah Heep's music has not. Your remark that Zeppelin and Floyd are "hot right now" is completely wrong, but gets to the heart of the matter. Zeppelin and Floyd aren't "hot right now," they've been hot since the 60s, and they will be hot for at least several generations to come. They have longevity across generations. History has judged them differently than it has judged Humble Pie and Uriah Heep. I don't even like post-Barrett Pink Floyd, but, regardless of my personal feelings about them, it's objectively obvious that they're on a different level than the now-forgotten second- and third-tier artists of their era.
     
  20. Raunchnroll

    Raunchnroll Senior Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    I'm not insulting you oats! Just pointing out the transparency of trying to use sales facts as 'proof' of popularity....a rather difficult term that defies being pinned down factually. You made a decent run at it though, I'll give you that.
    :cheers:
     
  21. Oatsdad

    Oatsdad Oat, Biscuits, Abbie & Mitzi: Best Dogs Ever

    Location:
    Alexandria VA
    You compared me to the frickin' Bush administration - that's not an insult??? :wtf:

    I never believed the numbers absolutely "proved" popularity, but they were the best measure we had. I mean, it's pretty clear the Bee Gees were insanely popular in 1978-79, and the best measures of that come from their sales and their chart positions.

    If the fact lots and lots of people like your music enough to buy it doesn't offer a decent to good measure of popularity, I don't know what does... :shrug:
     
  22. Raunchnroll

    Raunchnroll Senior Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    eerr..yes....I recall them being hot then because I bought their albums in the 70's. I meant hot right now in the current sense -- for dinosaurs bands. Uriah Heep is not hot (only warm.) By the way, there was a period in the 80's and 90's when Zep and Floyd weren't what I'd call hot. Classic... still popular....but not as hot as they are today.
     
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  23. Raunchnroll

    Raunchnroll Senior Member

    Location:
    Seattle
    Wait...you're not Republican? Cr*p, sorry. Actually I was comparing your analysis to a politician. The recollection of how politicians fumble factoids around with concepts, in order to come up with conclusions, just happened to be that 'wmd' one.
     
  24. Driver 8

    Driver 8 Senior Member

    Sure, there was probably a point in the 80s where Zeppelin's stature was at a lower ebb than it is today … but even at that lowest point, their songs were still played on the radio constantly, and their catalog still sold consistently. They have never fallen out of the public eye completely the way that Uriah Heep or Humble Pie or all of the other second- and third-tier bands of the era have. Not sure why this is such a difficult concept to grasp, but apparently it is.
     
  25. Roger Thornhill

    Roger Thornhill Senior Member

    Location:
    Ilford, Essex, UK
    Just out of interest I looked at the index that someone did for Mojo to 2002 from the beginning. Admittedly that's nowhere near up to date but I doubt whether the ratio of entries is that different now.

    Uriah Heep Albums: Issue 33, p 98
    Uriah Heep: Geoff Brown ID Crisis: Issue 33, p 138

    Deep Forest Extras:Issue 5, p115
    Deep Purple Extras:Issue 14, p106
    Deep Purple Thrust and Parry, At Your Service, 99, p131
    Deep Purple Collections - Buzz: 106, p151
    Deep Purple Albums (Box): Issue 37, p 112
    Deep Purple SP, 94, p126
    Deep Purple Diary: 106, p132

    Black Sabbath Extras:Issue 3, p120
    Black Sabbath Album Review (RI), 80, P124
    Black Sabbath Albums, Issue 24/3, p 127
    Black Sabbath Books:Issue 65,P125
    Black Sabbath Feature:Issue 49,P40
    Black Sabbath Live:Issue 51,P119

    Led Zeppelin Features: Issue 12a, p80
    Led Zeppelin 20lbs:Issue 6, p18
    Led Zeppelin Album(feature):Issue 49,P94
    Led Zeppelin Books, 95, p144
    Led Zeppelin Books: Issue 44, p 138
    Led Zeppelin Enlightenment: Issue 36, p 141
    Led Zeppelin Feature:Issue 77,P52
    Led Zeppelin Features:Issue 69,P53
    Led Zeppelin Nuggets, Issue 26, p 113
    Led Zeppelin TM Oct ‘80, 95, p40
    Led Zeppelin: British Invasion Features, Issue 30, p 52
    Led Zeppelin: Photographs Books, Issue 28, p 117

    Humble Pie Extras:Issue 17, p102

    The pre-eminence of LZ would have only got greater post-2007 with the gig at the O2.
     
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