Audiophile turntables: Are modern ones better than vintage? Anyone really know?

Well, I guess in my original post, yours could be 'old modern' or 'modern' depending on how much more than a decade your tt is.

I guess in my mind 'modern' is the 90s to now, 'old modern' is the 80s, perhaps more like the second half, and 70s and earlier are vintage.

 

You are most certainly allowed.

 

Older audio stuff is cool, and if you're lucky, will still sound really great. I say "lucky" because a lot of it needs lots of cleaning/repair/TLC to sound good again. Some of it has to be restored and its very hard to find someone to do that if you do not have the talent yourself.

I was pleased to see "audio" (aka prix) post 'cause he's the first guy that I thought would have a valuable opinion on old vs. new 'tables. Listen to what he has to say.

 

Here's the best of both worlds:

http://www.japanparts.com/Audio/Empire.htm

Personally I find this sort of thing about ten thousand times more interesting than dropping $$ on a VPI or Rega or something....but that's just me.

 

audio, great link, for those who are hands on people and have the time this would be great fun.

 

Yes, the problem is having the time!

 

Right now I have a Thorens 124MK2 (309 arm, blue ortofon) and a 125MK2, both restored by Schopper. They are totally badass.

I'm still interested what modern turntable would rival those and at what price? I love the look of the VPI's but I've never been near one...

 

Right now I have a Thorens 124MK2 (309 arm, blue ortofon) and a 125MK2, both restored by Schopper. They are totally badass.

I'm still interested what modern turntable would rival those and at what price? I love the look of the VPI's but I've never been near one...

 

You should get close enough to a VPI to hear it.

 

I'm a bit out of touch with turntable developments these days, but it seems that most current audiophile TTs are belt drive rather than direct drive. Is there a particular reason why? I recall DD being touted as the most accurate and stable drive method years ago.

 

The original thread is from 2005 so even the new turntables written about would be nine years old

 

The new VPI flagship ($30K with a 3D printed arm) is DD. Have hard it twice and it is on my short list.

 

There isn't much of a direct comparison since many people mod their vintage tables considerably. Also many vintage TT users have modern tonearm and cartridges. There are many older tables fitted into new plinths. So technically, we are talking about modified and adapted vintage tables.

Scott

 

The answer is good is still good & new turntables that are good is good.

 

I went through the decision new vs. old and settled on something of a hybrid solution. Bought a TT from Dave @ Vinyl Nirvana that he has named the VN 150. It is an extensively modified Thorens 150. All the OEM motor and suspension parts are examined and cleaned/adjusted/refurbished. There is a new plinth, arm board and top plate fitted. A new Rega 202 tonearm with Cardas wiring is installed and the Music Hall external speed controller, a record clamp and a dustcover are included in the package. You can also opt for additional damping material, and an upgraded counterweight. I have had the TT since June and am extremely happy with its performance.

One day it would be nice to have a VPI Classic, but for now I am really enjoying the unit that I have.

 

Garrard 301 all the way baby. My next TT, with a Schick tonearm and a Woodsong plinth.

Done.

 

This past year I got the Well Tempered Amadeus turntable which replaced a modest Harman Kardon table (hk720) 1980 vintage, give or take a year. It isn't a fair comparison given the difference in price points, but the WTA outshines in every way. Dead silent back grounds and amazing PRAT. There are a couple VPI models close to its price range. It is said they have deeper bass but the WTA swings in a way the VPIs don't.... Whatever blows your dress up....

The Amadeus is right in your budget and is worth checking out. It has non adjustable overhang but VTA and azimuth are very simple to adjust. For some that overhang issue kills it. I choose not to worry about it.

If tinkering isn't an interest this table will serve you well. If you do like to get your hands dirty, check out some of the older tables mentioned in this thread or one of the current VPIs would be good. Whatever you get, make sure the speed accuracy is good.

Don't forget to budget for a decent phono preamp. That makes a big difference.

If you go with a vintage tone arm on your older table you may limit your choice of modern cartridges. Something else to think about.

Analog playback is trickier than digital to get right, but it is worth the effort.

Good luck!

 

Dale, you've asked an interesting question but I don't think it's necessarily an age-related thing. I think it's more about you and the level of personal involvement you are comfortable with.

Look at wine - do you want to just open it and drink or are you happy to decant it carefully and aerate it properly?
Look at cars - do you care what's under the lid, do just want something that needs servicing every year and faggedaboutit or are you actively interested in how it runs and where improvements can be made?

In general, it's the same for turntables. Older ones can be more hands-on, newer ones can be more fix-and-forget. I will trade you another question for yours: are you Mr. Involved or are you Mr. Turn-it-on-and-leave-it?
Good luck,
DD

 

I'm a bit out of my realm here as I've used an Empire 698 since buying it new in 1975.

But...over the decades I've heard a lot of tables other than my Empire, actually some very expensive ones as well as the gamut of price ranges.

IMO, overspending on the table when the rest of the system is not in the same league results in a lot of money wasted. Also ignoring lower priced tables just because of their price is a mistake also.

That being said, diminishing returns also kicks in.

I got to hear a budget PRO-JECT - DEBUT CARBON versus a Clearaudio - Ovation - Turntable with Clarify Tonearm a while back swapped in and out in 3 of my friends different systems. A very respectable casual office setup, a vintage yet expensive man cave system as well as his $25k + audio room system. Some of the swaps were with the same cartridge in each table, others were with what he felt was the best cartridge for each table. this was done over several months of many on/off casual listening sessions as time allowed, not some sort of dry test rigor with the resulting pressures on the participants.

While long term listening certainly proved the + 10x more expensive Ovation a winner, we both agreed we would be hard pressed to say the PRO-JECT table fell seriously short, it's price had little correlation to it's sound which was very good. The differences were no where near as wide as the price spread was. My friend was surprised, I was not too surprised at the outcome. I actually egged him on into doing these swapping listening sessions. Initially he felt it would be a waste of time, but once we started he really got into the spirit of the whole thing.

He wants me to bring my Empire over on a few months loan to him so we can do the same thing this time with all 3 tables. Perhaps this winter when we have a lot of downtime we will do that.

 

I'm very tempted by a entry level vpi traveler just from an aesthetic stanpoint. But I would need to get rid of a Lenco 75 that was just restored and that's not going to happen... yet.

 

Wow it sells for 1790 Euros = US$ 2300 over here (no hood no cables no cartridge!) versus US$1500 at Soundstagedirect. No FiretrUCKING way am I going to spend that much.

 

Good question. I think Sal replaced his Forsell with a "vintage" Lenco. PTP Audio...amalgam of old and new. Works for me.

 

The 'BEST" vintage are still excellent. Then you have million and millions of mediocre old turntable floating around.
Same as cars.. Endless junkyard cars which are worthless. But a few 'good' cars left in a barn now and then turns out to be near priceless.
Same thing.
Modern turntables are far far better than all those average and cheap old turntables.
But for the price, if you get a deal on an old great TT. they can be well worth the investment.


((This is not about the $3000 Garrard 401 on eBay...etc))
For $3K buy the Rega P8, or the new VPI.

 

I had two turntables set up in my main system: a VPI Classic 1 with a Lyra Delos cart and a Thorens TD 124/SME 3009 arm/Denon 103R cart. They are definitely in the same league. There are some slight advantages to the VPI in terms of the level of detail and soundstaging and some slight advantages to the Thorens in the sense of pace and musical flow. I could easily live with one or the other, but fortunately I get to live with both One thing to keep in mind buying a vintage 'table is the maintenance that will be required, unless you buy one that has been recently restored. Right now, the SME arm is waiting to get rewired and a new part that keeps one of the counterweights in place. Once that's done, I plan on getting a mono cart and use the Thorens for mainly mono records. Ah, good times ahead...

 

Interesting to read how little the difference between real expensive and affordable tables are said to be . Somehow I find this a bit hard to believe since the difference from going from a Vintage DUAL CS 701 to a new Thorens TD 206 was simply said impressive. The thorens sounded fresher and more precise already with the cheap stock cart - an AT-95 modified for THORENS - but once I changed the cart from the DUAL - a HoMC from SUMIKO EVO II I am a sucker for Vinyl all over again. The most obvious upgrade in my system so far. It simply smokes any other source I got around - Files or CD's. of course the quality of the records have a lot to do with how much the Vinyl smokes digital. It takes a well recorded properly mastered good pressing to get the ultimate joy - not every LP is a sonical jewel..lol
I guess on a great system the quality of the TT construction makes a definitive difference but it is true a steady groove atz 33.3 or 45 RPM is all that is needed to let the cart and tonearm do their jobs - AND that's where the modern tt really shine.
The tonearm of the TD 206 costs nearly as much as the whole recod player and is responsible for the brilliant sound - along with a clever base and a good motor of course.