Using a double Y Cord for mono recordings

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by sberger, Jan 5, 2005.

  1. Pancat

    Pancat Senior Member

    Location:
    Merry England
    Yes
     
  2. AnalogJ

    AnalogJ Hearing In Stereo Since 1959

    Location:
    Salem, MA
    It's only a dumb question because it has been answered many times in different threads. But yes, it will solidify the image, improve the soundstage and rhythmic pulse of the music.
     
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  3. The FRiNgE

    The FRiNgE Forum Resident

    Yes! You can also Y the rec out jacks. The rec tap when combined L+R will act as a mono switch for all sources. To return to stereo, simply disconnect the Y cable. Some receivers/amps may have a buffer amp at the rec out stage, so in such case the double Y in the tape monitor loop will be switchable to mono at the flip of the monitor switch.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2014
    marcfeld69 likes this.
  4. Coricama

    Coricama Classic Rocker

    Location:
    Marietta, GA
    I didn't notice much difference on the Pet Sounds mono either, but on The Stones and Beatles mono I heard a significant improvement.
     
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  5. marcfeld69

    marcfeld69 Forum Resident

    It looks like it wasn't so dumb in that I later found a thread where it was implied it was really only for old records but I had a nagging feeling that Steve mentioned it in connection with the new Beatles monos, which made me wonder if there wasn't something to it after all.
     
  6. AnalogJ

    AnalogJ Hearing In Stereo Since 1959

    Location:
    Salem, MA
    One person implied/assumed that and he was quickly corrected. There have been many posts on this.
     
  7. Gabe Walters

    Gabe Walters Forum Resident

    Even new records have surface noise, and that noise is likely out-of-phase information. Summing the new Beatles mono reissues to mono will reduce that noise.
     
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  8. AnalogJ

    AnalogJ Hearing In Stereo Since 1959

    Location:
    Salem, MA
    And it does so much more in terms of temporal, soundstage.
     
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  9. tzatziki

    tzatziki Active Member

    Location:
    Austin TX
    sorry for the dumb question, humor me folks, is this what I want?

    [​IMG]
     
  10. RobCos02330

    RobCos02330 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Mass
    Quick question for you...I have the Audio Technica 120 and the RCA jacks are permanently installed on the TT end with only the male ends being usable(and plugged into the receiver)...in which case, would I buy two double y''s...one with male ends and one with female ends? I'm thinking I would be attaching the existing TT males into the females and then the females back out to the new males which would plug into the receiver. Hope that made sense?

    Rob C
     
  11. AnalogJ

    AnalogJ Hearing In Stereo Since 1959

    Location:
    Salem, MA
    That cord is for headphones.

    You want cords with RCAs, the type of plugs which are found on the cord leading into the turntable or the back of the amp.
     
  12. AnalogJ

    AnalogJ Hearing In Stereo Since 1959

    Location:
    Salem, MA
    Rob, the problem with going between the tonearm and integrated is that it can change the capacitance and severely roll of the top end of the sound. Unless you have an outboard phono stage, it'd be better to pick up a good cheapie mono like the Grado ME+ or MC+; or just enjoy the records as is.
     
  13. Steve Hoffman

    Steve Hoffman Your host Your Host

    Works on my old Thorens TD160 exactly that way. Sounds great. Try it.
     
  14. AnalogJ

    AnalogJ Hearing In Stereo Since 1959

    Location:
    Salem, MA
    I tried it between my Scout/Benz M2 and I got a big high-end roll off. Not so when I put it after the phono stage.
     
    The FRiNgE likes this.
  15. The FRiNgE

    The FRiNgE Forum Resident

    A very important point, but maybe TMI for anyone not technically inclined. Yes, strapping the stereo cartridge pins upsets the resistive and capacitive loading of the cartridge. Some phono amps may not like it, so the high freqs may roll off. The cartridge may also sound restrained, less open. There are other factors as well, such as any possible cartridge alignment errors, channel imbalance, azimuth alignment errors.. if any of these are not dead on, the mono strapping can decrease fidelity. Background noise, and sibilance will always be reduced.. however fidelity may be compromised.

    Strapping the L+R on tape reproduction has always been a great way to align the head azimuth, since any inter-channel phase errors will cause phase distortion in strapped mono mode. (we can plainly hear it) The same physical laws apply to a phono cartridge.

    If the Y is inserted post-phono stage, then the cartridge resistive and capacitive loading will not be affected. Any alignment errors may cause some fidelity loss, more apparent in mono vs stereo mode. Mono mode is actually a great test for overall cartridge performance for reproducing the center image, as well as revealing any frequency/ phase L+R differences. When A-B'ing stereo to mono, switching from stereo to mono, we should hear no change in fidelity (or a slight improvement due to lowered noise) and a decrease in background noise and sibilance. When playing worn monos, the Y trick always cleans up distortion and noise, sometimes completely cancelling them.

    Personally I prefer to archive some monos on one channel, as mentioned by others in this discussion. Most worn records are not worn evenly, so one channel (groove wall) will be more worn than the other (sometimes one wall unworn) so one channel plays more cleanly than the other. In such case we do not strap the L+R. The Y connects the L or R channel from the phono out to both pre-amplifier inputs, in dual mono. Groove wear can physically alter the actual signal pressed in the groove, unequally, and high frequency phases altered as the groove has been distorted out of shape. This difference in signal frequency and phase can and will affect strapped mono performance. By strapping the channels we can sometimes experience a reduction in fidelity. Some mono records respond better to the double Y.

    For the purpose of selection of dual mono, strapped mono, or stereo, many older preamps from the late 50's/ early 60's provided this feature. The mode switch is a useful tool for archival purposes as well as improved fidelity (preserved fidelity) for listening enjoyment.

    This may be TMI, but I think valuable info!
    Steve VK
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2014
  16. The FRiNgE

    The FRiNgE Forum Resident

    I am still on a learning curve regarding playback of mono records. However I have do have some experience with this. Recently I have rescued a bunch of 50's 45's quite clean, but damaged on one groove wall. Playback of the left channel only yields clean playback, the Rt channel distorted playback. Strapping these monos does not yield the best results ..only because they have unequal wear. The same applies to a cartridge or cartridge alignment which isn't dead on. Strapping the channels may reduce fidelity, increase phase distortion, and cause high frequency loss. If this happens, the cartridge alignment may not be right. Noise and distortion artifacts from vertical stylus movement are mostly out of phase, so strapping is very effective at reducing or eliminating them. But... it is also important to recognize any phase or frequency response differences in the signal, which strapping will also reduce. This applies only in signal difference L-R being introduced during mono playback.. before the Y strap. (forget L-R in stereo mode which is necessary for stereo playback) We don't want any L-R signal sourced from the record itself, nor the cartridge, nor phono stage. When these losses are present, still the effective reduction of noise and distortion will almost always offset any audible reduction in fidelity.

    In the case of the strapped Stereo cartridge, cartridge alignment may be more critical for mono, oddly since I would normally think otherwise. A true mono cartridge completely bypasses any potential problems introduced by a strapped stereo cartridge, at least theoretically.

    I feel that I did not convey my thoughts well enough in my previous post, so I am floundering with it again here. What I am getting is a more true, open sound from one stereo channel from the cartridge. The setup is just one simple Y from one channel post-phono stage to dual mono. The strapped double Y seems to be constraining, just something missing.. given the sharp reduction of background noise and distortion artifacts. For playback of some worn mono records, more evenly worn on both sides of the groove, I think the double Y strapped setup yields better results.
     
    Last edited: Sep 18, 2014
    GerryO likes this.
  17. OK, am I the only one doing this also from a cd player, both mono and some stereo CDs (that should be in mono) ? I realize the stereo ones will lose info due to summing cancellation of musical info. on the stereo masters, but on some cds, still sounds better than the stereo cd mix.
     
  18. AnalogJ

    AnalogJ Hearing In Stereo Since 1959

    Location:
    Salem, MA
    You could, but it'd be pointless with the mono CDs. The point of doing it with a stereo cartridge is that the channels will likely be uneven. That shouldn't be the case with CD playback. You're not getting two potentially different signals sent to each of the two channels. But hey, if it sounds better to you...
     
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  19. Pancat

    Pancat Senior Member

    Location:
    Merry England
    I thought Steve said to not do this for mono cds.
     
  20. The FRiNgE

    The FRiNgE Forum Resident

    I have not run across a mono CD that would benefit from summing the channels. I do not think summing would cause any degradation either.
     
  21. uncleroy

    uncleroy Forum Resident

    Location:
    usa
    has anyone tried and can recommend a RCA switch box? It would be nice to switch with a button between stereo and the mono setup
     
  22. Easy-E

    Easy-E Forum Resident

    There is an expensive one from KABUSA and that's it basically. Quite surprising really.

    Anyway there are plenty of photos and diagrams in the other thread for building your own - its a 1/2 hr job with about 20 bucks worth of parts.

    http://forums.stevehoffman.tv/threa...-true-mono-how-to-do-it-cheaply.81073/page-29
     
  23. Burning Tires

    Burning Tires Forum Resident

    Location:
    Atlanta, GA
  24. yes, agree with you all on no effect on a proper mono cd. But some still sound better this way. The "3rd" oops channel on some Beatles stereo CDs (Revolver, etc.) reveals quite interesting listening, that you won't get from any manipulation of the mono version of the CD. Try it.

    If you're going to build a switch box, include a switch for phase. You can also do this in software.
     
  25. ghost rider

    ghost rider Forum Resident

    Location:
    Bentonville AR
    I recently bought the Beatles mono masters. I started a thread asking how to play mono records and it got locked before I could completely get my game plan. To many threads I guess. So in one of the comments in regards to Steve’s method Radio Shack was mentioned so I figure Y adapters where used. So after reading this thread today I looked in all my boxes of wires and junk and found 2 Y adapters one 2males to a female the other to a male on a 1m cord. So there it is. I may test this later.

    Prior to this I discovered that when making needle drops if I record to a single mono channel it sounded much better. I still set my preamp to mono but I don’t think it even matters. It is a pain to change out the wires but can be done. Not having a removable head shell a mono cartridge is out of the question. Although I do have an old Project debut with a V15 on it I could leave set up for mono records.


    OK I just tested with the Ys and my 1st listen as I’m ripping sides 3 & 4 it’s no better than when I recorded to a mono file using the stereo cables. I think my gripe has always been just the poor recording done back in the day and these mono record sets are as good as it will ever get.


    Because so many members claimed to reach Nirvana from these and other mono records I just had to see for myself. The verdict is not in with me, so far I prefer better recordings in stereo.
     

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