Balance problems

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Joey_Corleone, Sep 21, 2014.

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  1. Joey_Corleone

    Joey_Corleone Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Rockford, MI
    i have come to the conclusion that I can't pretend any longer I don't have a balance problem in my room. I am looking for some solutions to fix it.

    My room is weird, and I have no doubt this is the reason for this problem. I have a wall on the right side but not on the left side. As a result, even if I am sitting dead in the middle, imaging is off. It is particularly annoying for mono, because the drums will be slightly off to the left side instead of "behind" the vocal.

    So far I have found 3 different things I can do to fix this

    1) move my chair so I am sitting offcenter, closer to the right speaker by about 4"
    2). Physically move the left channel about 4" further left
    3) Sit dead center and constantly have to have balance controls about +3db on the right turned on

    From a pure looks perspective I like option number 3 but I hate the idea that my balance is not equal on the preamp! What would you do?

    Right now I am experimenting with option 2. Sounds perfect but looks goofy.
     
  2. ghost rider

    ghost rider Forum Resident

    Location:
    Bentonville AR
  3. The FRiNgE

    The FRiNgE Forum Resident

    Just a suggestion, treat the wall with drapery, maybe acoustic foam in back of the drapery. Treat the near field first. If that doesn't do the trick, then cover the entire wall. The imaging problem appears to be frequency selective. Wall reflections are delayed, which can reinforce or null certain frequencies. The idea here is to reduce the early reflections as much as possible.

    A second option would be an asymmetrical arrangement. The entire system, and speakers could be angled away from the side wall, and your listening chair or sofa moved out further into the free air part of the room... away from the side wall. Be careful to position each speaker the same distance away from your listening chair. The asymmetrical setup works nicely in most rectangular rooms as well, but sometimes the only option for difficult rooms.
     
  4. Joey_Corleone

    Joey_Corleone Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Rockford, MI
    After messing around for a bit longer, turns out it is not really THAT bad....just slightly enough to be irritating. The left channel is just a bit hotter than the right from the dead center....like on the order of maybe 2 inches. I would bet it is my room arrangement because it happens on all sources, and it happened before my upgrade exactly the same. For now, I put the speakers back the way they should be and have just accepted the fact that for it to sound balls on I have to have my sweet spot chair shifted an inch or two to the right.

    Maybe one day I will try treatments, but for now I am pretty happy. It is not even a huge offset....just shifting your head to the right a bit can make it sound perfect. Must just be some weird reflection issue. One open side and one side a few feet from a wall can't help my imaging.
     
  5. BrokenByAudio

    BrokenByAudio Forum Resident


    Two things: one, Make sure that you don't have any settings screwed up on the C2500. When I first got my C220 I seem to recall that I had a balance issue and there was something not right that I had inadvertently messed up. I just don't remember precisely what it was. (You may want to call McIntosh customer service; I suspect they get this kind of inquiry periodically.)

    Number two: the Mac MEN220 "Room Conditioning!!! " I keep talking about this unit and I will continue to talk about it until I am blue in the face. There are simply rooms that cannot be made to work optimally with room treatments because of shape, irregular adjacent air volumes, and so on. I was having a nightmare for 6-8 months after a room remodel, I forget how long precisely, and I was pulling out the last of my head hairs. I talked the local dealer (Speaker Shop) into bringing the unit in for a demo...and it fixed the problem! They've subsequently sold others. Fantastic unit. It provides the ability to set up multiple focal points (idealized sound at a variety of distinct listening locations; pick one) and also a "global" setting (for "better" sound) in a more generalized sense (like for parties). Additionally there are a handful of preset EQs you can use, or you can manually pre-set your own.

    Yeah, it's another Mac unit and costs ($4K list I think? $4500 maybe?) but worth every penny.
     
  6. Hipper

    Hipper Forum Resident

    Location:
    Herts., England
    If your option 2 works do that. As long as the distance between your ears and speakers is the same for both sides I see nothing wrong with that.

    From what you describe though I find it odd that your image is to the left. I would expect it to be to the right because reflections off the right side wall would enhance the sound on that side. Have you tried swapping the speakers around to see if you get the same results. Or speaker cables, or left and right amp connections etc..
     
  7. smctigue

    smctigue Forum Resident

    It's funny, Audio Physic's setup instructions have, for years, proposed addressing an imbalance by moving one of the speakers either closer or away from the listener. Sounds like this is what you are doing with Option 2. I don't think I've ever seen that suggested by any other company.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2014
  8. BuddhaBob

    BuddhaBob Forum Resident

    Location:
    Erie, PA, USA
    Have you tried swapping speakers or cabling as Hipper suggested? Both the signal in and speaker cables? Could there be a damaged driver (kids?). Just curious.
     
  9. jupiterboy

    jupiterboy Forum Residue

    Location:
    Buffalo, NY
    I have a room kind of like this—left speaker in a larger open area. I switched to a speaker with a front firing port like you have, and that has given me more controlled bass, but has not been as easy to work with. I don’t know your speakers, but I have found a front ported design to work well close to a wall front and rear. In positioning the speaker without wall reinforcement, I had the epiphany that instead of placing both speakers equidistant from the back wall that I was essentiall free with my placement of this speaker. I got some twine used in construction that doesn’t have much strech and placed one end in a clamp that I placed on top of each speaker so I could check the distance from the top/center of each speaker to the listening position (I do this with a measurement mic). This helped greatly, and allowed me to move the open speaker a bit further into the room to compensate for it being further left of the seating position. Now I can place my speakers farther apart, which helps greatly. I also use a laser level to sight where each speaker array is aimed, using window framed and oddly shaped wall structures behind the listening position for some diffusion/scatter.

    Getting a basic measurement setup has helped, because I did not have total confidence until I could measure the frequency response of each speaker separately. REW is out there and free if you have the inclination.
     
  10. Dmann201

    Dmann201 Forum Resident

    I have a similar problem with my living room where the right channel is next to a wall and the left channel has no wall next to it causing imaging problems with the left channel. My solution so far has been to shift my head slightly to the right from my center position and everything snaps into focus pretty well.
     
  11. scotpagel

    scotpagel Forum Resident

    Location:
    Mesa, Az
    I have the exact problem but I have acoustic panels equal on the left and right wall. I'm starting to think maybe just maybe it's a hardware issue in the amp or preamp. I have electrostatic speakers so it's not a bad driver but maybe one is old and weaker than the other. It sounded like this in my old place with no acoustic panels. Maybe a opamp? In the pre or amp itself. Switched cables and interconnects so it's not that and both cd player and record player it's the same. I turn my head to the right and it fixes it somewhat and if I move the chair over two inches or so fixes it also. Weird
     
  12. Brother_Rael

    Brother_Rael Senior Member

    No balance issues here. Speaker positioning and/or accepting the limitations of awkwardly shaped rooms are the best options I've found over the years. Currently, room shape is fine and setup is neat.

    Only other balance issues I can think of are easily addressed by drinking less!
     
  13. Hipper

    Hipper Forum Resident

    Location:
    Herts., England
    Another possibility is different hearing ability in each ear. You can check this by turning your back on the speakers and hearing if the balance changes.
     
    Robert C likes this.
  14. scotpagel

    scotpagel Forum Resident

    Location:
    Mesa, Az
    Yeah maybe my hearing. I'll do that when I get home
     
  15. Joey_Corleone

    Joey_Corleone Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Rockford, MI
    I have always had this issue in this room. This issue has followed across different interconnects, different preamp, different amp. I don't have kids and my speaker drivers are definitely not damaged. I've tried swapping the speakers around too. Also it happens on all sources, so I am doubting a hardware problem
     
    BuddhaBob likes this.
  16. Joey_Corleone

    Joey_Corleone Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Rockford, MI
    I have found the same.
     
  17. Luckydog

    Luckydog Active Member

    Location:
    london, uk
    Perhaps its surprising that we can perceive a balanced image in an asymmetrical room at all, because for sure reflections will be different for each ear from each channel. But somehow one's brain mostly sorts it out, though maybe at a penalty of listening being 'tiring' over longer periods. Also we're not machines - ability to form a proper image varies from day to day IME. Best hope is perhaps to make it easy for one's brain to work out, by doing as much as poss to keep reflections minimal and symmetrical. So even when there are asymmetric or absent walls, one might still arrange symmetric drapes on tracks to form temporary 'listening walls' on either side, for example. Depends how far one is prepared to go for the art of it all. Otherwise, a perception that centre of a mono image shifts from day to day is normal in an asymmetric room I find, variation can have nothing to do with hardware. Just my 2p worth.
     
  18. Vidiot

    Vidiot Now in 4K HDR!

    Location:
    Hollywood, USA
    Move your chair 2 inches to the right. Problem solved!
     
    norman_frappe likes this.
  19. Joey_Corleone

    Joey_Corleone Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Rockford, MI
    Things just got a little bit more interesting lol...I had a chance to experiment tonight so I measured everything again meticulously, and went back to the model where the chair is directly in the middle.

    Now...some records, cd's whatever across all sources require 2-3db balance shift right to sound perfect centered, while some are completely fine!

    For example, I played all things must pass on vinyl and needed a bit of a bump right. I tested some mono dylan and same thing, but now I am playing velvet underground loaded on vinyl and it is perfect at 0 balance shift.

    Maybe it is frequency specific or something....I think I will just use my balance as needed. It is really pretty slight. On the c2500 you get 50db in either direction so going 2 or 3 db right is pretty small in the grand scheme of things.
     
  20. Joey_Corleone

    Joey_Corleone Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Rockford, MI
    Let me also just say that this whole experiment has made me realize how much I DESPISE when engineers mix recordings on purpose with lead vocal or drums a bit off center, like when they put drums half way between the center and left channel in the sound stage. Irritating!

    Unless it is a live recording and that is the best way to communicate how the stage was actually setup...WHY?
     
  21. tim185

    tim185 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Australia
    Just some panels wont do anything much to fix asymmetry at all. I have two walls made of different materials on the OUTER of each of those walls. I can measure significant difference as frequency gets lower from the two speakers in relation to each other. I also have massive treatment in those wall corners. Thankfully it dosent seem to affect what I hear.
     
  22. tim185

    tim185 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Australia
    Its called the ART of record production and mixing. Its based on individual decisions that could be based on anything. Not ...and now here is a live stage experience for you! Thats what you pay for to go to concerts.
     
  23. Hipper

    Hipper Forum Resident

    Location:
    Herts., England
    One CD I have has vocals off centre on some tracks (Joan Armatrading - Down to Zero) but mostly I find them correctly centred . I've not noticed a problem on the Red Book CD All Things Must Pass.

    Perhaps your set up is particularly sensitive to balance problems, or you are. I don't listen out for imbalances unless it comes to my attention.

    Anomalies of stereo recordings, such as a solo singer playing the piano where the vocals are centred but the piano is from the left speaker giving her ten foot arms, are just something we have to put up with.
     
  24. motownboy

    motownboy Senior Member

    Location:
    Washington State
    Try using a mono sound source and see how focused it is. Does it seem to come from the exact middle of the two speakers? If not, try the suggestions above, but if you can get a full-range mono recording (meaning one with good bass, midrange, and highs) to sound like it is coming from the center of the two speakers, then you should also get a good stereo image. What you are looking to fix are frequency response and phase differences between both speakers that are mostly crated by that particular room. A mono source will reveal the differences in sound between the speakers.
     
  25. jazz8588

    jazz8588 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Sandbach, England
    I'm ashamed to admit it, but I thought I had a balance problem on my speakers some years ago. It took a few days to figure out. One of the tweeters had blown.
     
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