Harbeth C7ES-3: 6 Years On, Still Impresses Daily.

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by ServingTheMusic, Sep 19, 2014.

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  1. ServingTheMusic

    ServingTheMusic Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    SoCal
    Sadly, I had seen a bunch of posts from misinformed folks who were whining about the cost of Harbeth products, and in particular, the 30.1. Folks were claiming the importer, who does an excellent job, was "gouging". Utter nonsense. My answer to them would be...get on a plane to England, pay the VAT, and haul the speakers back your self.
     
  2. beowulf

    beowulf Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chula Vista, CA
    The cabinets are rather simple, small and (although I realize they are designed this way for a reason) they are nothing out of the ordinary and should be fairly inexpensive to produce. What I don't know is how elaborate the crossovers are, or how expensive it is to produce the Radial driver, but I've read that the other drivers are produced elsewhere by the likes of SEAs.

    With that in mind, when you compare Harbeth prices to another British built company such as Rega, I do tend to think there seems to be a considerable mark. I mean how much more costlier is it to produce and import a Harbeth speaker than a Rega speaker? My best guess is that it can't be that huge of a difference (but this is only a guess).

    I'm not saying this to reflect negatively on Harbeth because as long as people pay for it and that they are deriving pleasure and value from it ~ then more power to them.
     
  3. jupiterboy

    jupiterboy Forum Residue

    Location:
    Buffalo, NY
    I always think it is a mistake to add up component/cabinet cost and hold that as a line for cost. My sense of Harbeth is that they do have a complex crossover network. Still, it is the design and the time testing and implementing the design that represents the cost. In addition, you are paying people a living wage to assemble them.

    When I purchased my current speakers (not Harbeth), I ran down all the components and tallied them up. The components were about 25% of the cost, not including the cabinet, which is not simple (tuned transmission line). Still, it is the design that adds value to those components, and that design is about how those components go together and how they work with the cabinet.

    Beyond that, there is a premium paid for brand, but in most cases that reputation is earned over a long period of producing quality that is dependable without missteps.

    One thing about Harbeth is that they do not change their models out constantly to create a sense that one need upgrade to the next new thing every year. That way of doing business, no doubt, results in fewer sales and a higher price per sale.
     
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  4. raferx

    raferx Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vancouver, Canada
    The Rega RS10 retails for $13,000, so I'm not sure what you're getting at as far as Harbeth pricing.
    As for the driver parts, SEAS builds Harbeth's tweeters to Alan Shaw's design and specification, they are "bespoke," not "off the rack" if you will.
    The crossovers are large and elaborate... All Harbeth builds is speakers, every speaker is award-winning, most with dozens of world-class awards.
    All are built by hand in the UK.
    You gets what you pays for.
     
  5. norman_frappe

    norman_frappe Forum Resident

    They also created their own proprietary cone material. Any schmo can buy a bunch of parts and stick them in a cabinet. But there is real applied science that must be done in speaker design if you want to do it right. That costs time and money. Actually I remember Alan saying he didn't want to change models all the time because it is expensive to do so - retooling, resourcing parts etc. From what I recall he also said that they are at full capacity filling orders at the moment. He is a great business man in addition to being a great speaker designer imo. The 40.1 is probably the best speaker I have ever heard. Now if I can only hit the lottery.
     
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  6. molinari

    molinari Forum Resident

    Location:
    new york city
    Thanks for the viewpoint - interesting that the P3's share the same signature as the 30.1 and 40.1... I haven't had the chance to hear all of the models, so that's nice to know...
     
  7. jupiterboy

    jupiterboy Forum Residue

    Location:
    Buffalo, NY
    I have heard the 40.1, but I don’t believe they were well matched with the amp and the room was much less than ideal. Done right is the variable, as there are many great speaker designers who have very different ideas about what this might mean. Good luck with the lottery!
     
  8. beowulf

    beowulf Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chula Vista, CA
    But the RS10 is a massive cabinet and their statement product and there's a lot more into the cabinet design alone compared to the Harbeth cabinets. The rest of Rega's line is more reasonably priced in comparison starting from $800 up to $3200 for their second to the top model (retail, not street price which I've seen for a lot less in some instances). As far as bespoke drivers for Harbeth, a lot of speaker manufacturers have SEAS build their drivers at custom specs, so no big deal there and that is not a cut down towards Harbeth at all as a lot of guys do it with excellent results.

    I agree and I'm not trying to place the value of a speaker based on the price of its components alone, so don't take my post the wrong way. All good speaker manufacturers should have many hours of research into their techniques, materials, etc. so Harbeth is no different in that respect either. I was simply replying in regards to the post about mark-ups and jumping on a boat to England and paying VATs, etc. And I'm just guessing here, but I doubt it costs much more to produce and import a pair of Rega speakers than it does with Harbeth.

    That's all, I'm not saying they aren't worth what somebody would pay for them as they seem to be very respected and revered.
     
  9. jupiterboy

    jupiterboy Forum Residue

    Location:
    Buffalo, NY
    Got it. I know economies of scale apply, and I have zero idea how many units either maker moves.

    And regarding custom drivers, it does seem that the lighter materials react more quickly, take less juice and generally behave better. I am currently of a mind, after my last run of listening, that the super light driver material is a big advantage in lowering distortion and presenting detail.
     
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  10. Jtycho

    Jtycho Forum Resident

    Location:
    PA
    Rega is a bad company to compare with Harbeth. Rega makes DACs, turntables, CD players, CD players, amps, and cartridges. I have know idea if there's more profit in any of those ideas, but since I don't know I can't presume that either company is over charging. My thoughts on value is this: if a brilliant guy can produce a speaker (or anything for that matter) that performs as well or far better than any speaker in its price class, and it only costs him $100 to manufacture, I really don't care if it cost me $5000, because there's a direct correlation between its cost and it's performance value. All Harbeth speakers perform where they're priced at and beyond, therefore they are a good value, irregardless of what they cost to manufacture.
     
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  11. norman_frappe

    norman_frappe Forum Resident

    Light and stiff is what you want. Paper is light but not stiff. There are pretty obvious differences in materials imo. Harbeth seems to have gotten it right. Others probably too but Harbeth did seduce me.
     
    Last edited: Sep 23, 2014
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  12. jupiterboy

    jupiterboy Forum Residue

    Location:
    Buffalo, NY
    If I had a better shop in town, they might have seduced me as well. I have to say that the SEAS TPX drivers also sound very natural, and I ultimately went for a more efficient speaker than Harbeth, but I could have easily had a set of 30.1s, and did give them a listen. My general impression is that they nail the miss and avoid the piercing high end, which makes for a very easy, natural, right sounding speaker that is great for a long session.
     
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  13. octaneTom

    octaneTom Man of Leisure

    I think Proac and Spendor are better comparisons to Harbeth than Rega, FWIW.
     
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  14. ServingTheMusic

    ServingTheMusic Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    SoCal
    Agree.
     
  15. ServingTheMusic

    ServingTheMusic Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    SoCal
    For what it's worth, I had a brief, enjoyable listening session with the 30.1's today.

    Fantastic room, with acoustical treatments, Devialet electronics, DNM cables.

    Great sounding speaker...think liquid midrange, woody, natural overtones, and quick, tight, and articulate bass.
     
  16. jupiterboy

    jupiterboy Forum Residue

    Location:
    Buffalo, NY
    This describes my take on the 40.1s, but the bass and mid bass were loose and not well controlled. I believe they had a mid-priced Marantz setup driving them (why, I don't kow), and they were very close together. I had to sit about 4 ft away. I was a bit puzzled. I could see a tube amp having a selective frequency mismatch. The impedance curves on these speakers do seem reasonably flat.
     
  17. jupiterboy

    jupiterboy Forum Residue

    Location:
    Buffalo, NY
    Reading on the Harbeth site, it sounds like the performance of TPX as a cone material and its price or scarcity inspired Harbeth to develop the proprietary Radial material they use now. The more you know…
     
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  18. Upinsmoke

    Upinsmoke Well-Known Member

    Location:
    SE PA
    From what I have heard personally of the Harbeth line to my ears the SHL5 and 30.1 are the way to go. I didn't think the 40.1 sounded that much better, a slightly better ability to rendition some of the lower frequencies but that is due more to having a larger cabinet. Both the 30.1 and SHL5 exhibited a very lifelike midrange, bass sounded tight, not something I would recommend for a basshead but if you wanted to fill it out then matching a good sub would take care of that problem. They are probably some of the most realistic sounding speakers I've ever had the pleasure of listening to. They do appear to be sensitive to source though. Crap in and crap out in that case. Also they enjoy quite a bit of current driven to them, not the most efficient of speakers. Any decent amp should be able to drive them without issue. Definitely not worth the HUGE jump in price between the two models. I'd be thrilled to death to have a pair of SHL5 or 30.1's.

    Hopefully that description helps define the sound a bit better than some flowery rendition in a review that makes no sense in real context.
     
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  19. octaneTom

    octaneTom Man of Leisure

    From what I hear personally in my living room every day of the Harbeth line, the C7es3 is also the way to go. The C7 has plenty of bass, works great with tube or solid state amplification, sounds incredibly realistic (pianos sound like pianos, fuzzed out Gibsons through Marshalls sound like fuzzed out Gibsons through Marshalls), sparkles in representing vocals and midrange, and just presents all manner of instruments as if they are right in the room with you. That's the best way I can describe it. Everything just sounds cleaner, clearer and more defined through the C7s than through any other speaker I've heard in my living room, which granted is not that many.
     
  20. whaleyboy

    whaleyboy Senior Member

    Location:
    San Diego, CA
    The cabinets are simple looking, yes, but appear (upon close inspection) to be built with extremely tight tolerances. They are magnificent, perfectly square and just beautiful. I value craftsmanship and that construction impacts (or seems to impact) the sound generated.

    Oddly, I didn't think that they were expensive for perceived value received but maybe I am just a sucker for how they sound :)
     
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  21. ServingTheMusic

    ServingTheMusic Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    SoCal
    I agree completely.
     
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  22. ServingTheMusic

    ServingTheMusic Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    SoCal
    4 feet is too close to sit to the 40.1. And you need an amp that can control the woofers.
     
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  23. jupiterboy

    jupiterboy Forum Residue

    Location:
    Buffalo, NY
    I know. That is exactly why I pointed these details out. I don’t run the local hi-fi shop. Just saying that my impression was not great because the set up was not optimal as not unduly influence anyone considering these speakers.
     
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  24. ServingTheMusic

    ServingTheMusic Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    SoCal
    ...and we wonder why hifi shops are dropping like flies....
     
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  25. jupiterboy

    jupiterboy Forum Residue

    Location:
    Buffalo, NY
    I could tell about the number of times I have been in to attempt to purchase something and ended up purchasing somewhare else because they could not get me a product to demo, etc. Still, I faithfully march into the shop every single time I am ready to buy, and I give them another shot. At this point, I am sure they think I am just a window shopper/tire kicker, having no idea I do actually buy things. However, if an online retainler will send me units to demo, and the brick and mortar will only order if I purchase, well, what can I say.
     
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