Were Nirvana really bigger than Guns N' Roses?

For once I agree with you. Justice is a masterful album but I find it very hard to listen to because of the lack of bass.

But I'm scratching my head trying to understand your line of thought...ie what does that have to do with our discussion?

 

You were looking for baseless accusations. I accuse Metallica of unjustly removing the base or bass.

Lars' drums sound really good on that album, though. The lack of bass is really a minor complaint. I am just curious as to how it would sound with actual bass guitar sounds.

 

Metallica were at the forefront of the thrash genre but the Black Album saw them move more into hard rock / commercial metal territory. But "alt metal"? First time I've heard them referred to as that! Don't hear one "alt" note in any of their music. IMO the Black Album is as "alt" as is Appetite for Destruction. That is...none alt!

 

Oh - now I get it. Hence the mid-spelling of "bass". Got it!

 

They still had long hair in the "Sandman" video:

 

Again people, "... And Justice For All" was NOT Jason's studio debut with Metallica. It was the Garage Days Re-Revisted EP. Which is one of the best sounding things they have ever done.

 

Not original material, though.

 

Well, I don't think "alt-metal" really existed as a subgenre at that point. If it did, it probably referred to Soundgarden and Faith No More. But the Black Album was most certainly a step towards more popular music, and by the time Load came out, Metallica were teetering on the edge of being a "grunge" band.

 

Although, to be pedantic, there is some prominent bass on the album - sure, it's all in the kick drum and the muted, heavily scooped power chords, but it's there!

 

Yes I would agree that Sandman largely predated alt metal, at least as a named genre. But to me alt metal implies metal infused with other colors, textures and genres. The classic alt metal band for me is Faith No More - in fact I believe they are generally considered to be amongst the godfathers of the genre - whereas Metallica are considered to be godfathers of thrash.

IMO Sandman was only "alternative" for Metallica in the sense that it was different from their previous work. It was slower, more classic hard rock in vein, more melodic, and far more accessible. It was almost danceable. But "alt metal"? I dunno, I've never heard it referred to as such. To me it's almost "pop metal".

 

True. But I think it would be far better if there were an actual bass guitar that could be heard. I find it difficult to listen to that album - it sounds like I'm only hearing some of the music...almost like I have to imagine what the bass is playing. It takes a toll on me!

 

I hear you, although I too wish I could also hear some Newstead bass on Justice. I wonder why they didn't take the opportunity to do a 20/25th anniversary deluxe edition with a bass-restored remix - just too petulant to concede that originally releasing it bassless was a bad idea rather than a bold experiment?

 

The term alt-metal makes me think of something like Mind Funk.

 

I agree. I never felt like GnR was a hair metal band. To me, they were the last great rock and roll band. Appetite for Destruction is a perfect rock album...every guitar solo is perfect. I was in 5th or 6th grade when GnR came out and loved Nirvana when they hit. Both bands seemed huge to me at the time. Nirvana was just a different thing and changed airplay forever. That being said, if GnR kept making records I believe they still would have sold. IMO, Nirvana killing "hair metal" did not impact GnR.

 

What a mess. No band has ever gone from really great to really lame faster than GnR did.

 

I don't know how you find that Nirvana had a bigger effect on "radio playlists and the like". GNR became the leaders of the rock 'n roll scene in 1988, which helped to immediately promote similar sounding bands and artists like Aerosmith, Skid Row, Alice Cooper, Tesla, The Cult, Faith No More, Motley Crue, Whitesnake, Scorpions, Poison, Ozzy Osbourne, RATT, Warrant, Great White, Extreme, Mr. Big, and Ugly Kid Joe. Many of these bands had massive MTV and pop radio hits.

Nirvana had an immediate effect on promoting Pearl Jam, Soundgarden, Stone Temple Pilots, Smashing Pumpkins, Bush, Silverchair, etc. These bands, however, didn't garner the same type of pop response that the bands similar to GNR did. If anything, Nirvana served to make similar sounding rock less popular that the bands that sounded like GNR.

 

Motley Crue, The Cult, Poison, Aerosmith, Whitesnake, RATT and the Scorpions were already getting airplay on MTV and having hits before GNR came along.

 

In 1989-1993, past airplay success didn't guarantee future success. GNR helped these bands immensely by being the standard bearers of all things rock.

 

It was obvious at the time that Guns N' Roses and U2 had more general popularity than Nirvana did. Wanting your "alternative" rock to have been what everyone was listening to is trying to have your cake and eat it too.

 

Nirvana couldn't have done what they did without GN'R paving the way.

They worked in tandem : GN'R set em up, Nirvana knocked em down.

Funny thing is, GN'R had more Seattle punk street cred (Duff) than Nirvana EVER did...but MTV painted the picture that Nirvana was 'punk' and 'street', and that was never the reality. They were both on the same major label lol

Those two bands are a lot closer than most people realize...

 

Bigger ? Nah. Better ? Yes IMHO. Loved Nirvana and hated G&R FFS !!

 

Hardly. If a single group like GnR never existed the music trends would have continued as they did. There was very little nexus between the two. In the latter 80's Nirvana was one of many bands developing their sound in a thriving local scene where predominant influences reached back to 60's pop rock and 70's classic hard rock bands melded with current punk/indie ethos. GnR represented the LA glitz/cheesy machismo/street swagger/chicks a** grabbing image that was the anti-thesis of what was going on here. And they definitely did not have Seattle punk street cred that I ever saw. There never was much of a punk scene here except the localized in time kind; at a show when the right bands were playing. And even then 80% of the crowd couldn't be distinguished from people who just got off work. Its true the cliche MTV punk/street image was not a scene. Seattle was not remotely New York or LA.

 

GnR shoulda went Grunge !

then they would not be hated so much

 

Duff is from Seattle, where he played with the Fartz and the Fastbacks in the early 80s...

He had the real Seattle punk rock pedigree that Kurt, via Aberdeen and Olympia, only wished he could've conjured...

Again, facts are facts. And those are the facts.

Guns N' Roses have a true punk rock pedigree.

What you think about L.A. in the 1980s is irrelevant.

 

You sound like a "I read some books and gathered up some facts to support a stereotype or point" type that didn't experience or live in an era or scene. Your facts are not even facts. Punk - to the extent someone claims to be a 'pedigreed' punk (whatever that means...) has nothing to do with ones birth date or where they were born. There were plenty of late 70's punk musicians here that didn't grow up in Seattle. I guess they don't have a 'Seattle punk pedigree' (a concept that doesn't exist except in music rags or internet ramblings). By that standard no one in GnR (or any other 80's bands) could have a rock pedigree -- because they are too young to have been a part of the original/early rock scene. Duff moved away years before the local music scene changed here and different genres came into popularity. Never saw him in the '80's nor do I recall friends I knew here (in bands, music promotion & management, etc.) associating him as anything other than a local musician who moved off to LA and was now part of a very popular LA hard rock band. But Guns & Roses did do its part to revitalize rock at the time. I bought the album, liked it, played it, it was a good album for the era. It was MTV and the media that hyped a punk credo and ancestry onto grunge - a term which was itself an inside joke here before being picked up as a bona fide title by the mainstream music media. I don't recall Kurt or anyone else here I knew then claiming this alleged MTV/Seattle 'punk' pedigree. The musical influences were far too broad to be so narrow & limited. Whatever labels one wants to put on the actors - go for it. Hand out the certificates.