Alnico speakers - Strengths & Weaknesses

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by Brian Gupton, Oct 19, 2014.

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  1. beowulf

    beowulf Forum Resident

    Location:
    Chula Vista, CA
    Another great track to bring along would be off Dean Peer's Airborne album titled "1 Speed" (get the thumb drive 96/24 hi-res version). This track should put the bass of the 604 through a serious workout and let you know what it can/can't do on the low end. I would say if the 604 could keep up with more than one tone bass, it would be ok on the lower end with most of your muisic preferences despite it's other shortcomings. Look for nice reverberation trails and transient speeds, also take notice of the where the 604 rolls off.

    Here is a quick video of the Decware DIY DNA horn on the "1 Speed" track, which despite being 320kps playing through a streaming video, it still sounds pretty amazing for a 5" driver in a 28" high cabinet that can be built for under $1000. I wouldn't expect the 604 to keep up speed wise with a 5" driver in a no crossover, but it should be a great track to demo with.

    http://zenamps.wordpress.com/2014/10/17/dna-horn-demo/
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2014
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  2. kfringe

    kfringe Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Oregon Coast
    Alnico has nothing to do with bass. That particular flaw is limited to the 604, and I've always loved the bass it does have. The question only you can answer is whether it's enough to satisfy you. It sounds like it is, so you're set.
     
  3. chervokas

    chervokas Senior Member

    Well, there's nothing really about AlNiCo guitar speakers that's anything like those Altec 604 speakers.

    Prized guitar speakers are just 10 and 12" paper cone, narrow bandwidth speakers, not a 15" full range driver with a multi segment horn like an Altec 604. Completely different speakers in ways that are way more fundamental than magnet material.

    Plus, most often the most prized guitar speakers are prized not for their fidelity but for their distortion characteristics when overdriven and all things being equal AlNiCo magnet guitar speaker do tend to develop a pleasing warm compressed sounding fatness when pushed vs a crunchier kind of distortion that's more characteristic of otherwise similar cermamic magnet speakers. But I don't know that any of that is relevant to hifi where hopefully you're not driving your speakers into distortion routinely, and certainly not to a 604 speaker which is a whole different sort of driver than like an old Jensen P12R or something.
     
    Last edited: Oct 22, 2014
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  4. acdc7369

    acdc7369 Forum Resident

    Location:
    United States
    AlNiCo speakers are awesome in guitar amps. They're very smooth sounding. 1 out of the 2 speakers in my guitar amp is a Celestion AlNiCo Gold 10". Way warmer but also has more top end than most ceramic guitar speakers.
     
  5. Atmospheric

    Atmospheric Forum Resident

    Location:
    Eugene
    I've never heard of any guitarist using Shindos for guitar, and I'm pretty familiar with all the cork sniffer guitar speakers.
     
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  6. chervokas

    chervokas Senior Member

    Those Altec 604's are really dual drivers with the horn and the paper cone driver, I guess. Completely different two way set up with that horn than any kind of guitar speaker. It and a Jensen P12R might each have magnets made of AlNiCo but I don't think there's much otherwise in common.
     
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  7. captwillard

    captwillard Forum Resident

    Location:
    Nashville
    Well, there is the Supro Thunderbolt amp with a 15 inch speaker.
     
  8. chervokas

    chervokas Senior Member

    Sure, occasionally you'll come across guitar amps with 15" speakers -- the old blackface non-reverb Pro (a ceramic speaker was stock, not AlNiCo). In fact, I like a 15"er for guitar. I have a 1X15 cab for my '66 Bandmaster and it's a big, deep clean sound with fully clean bottom end extension. But they're not commonly seen in guitar amps. And more to the point, a dual-driver, two-way set up for full high frequency extension to 22kHz via the high frequencies crossed over to a center mounted multicell horn-loaded speaker isn't to be found in any guitar speaker.

    That Altec 604 is a completely different sort of speaker, or really, speaker system, AlNiCo magnet or ceramic magnet.
     
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  9. Atmospheric

    Atmospheric Forum Resident

    Location:
    Eugene
    Yep, I had a custom 1x15 cab made for my Morgan SW50R Dumble clone. It sounds wonderful. Morgan doesn't even make a 1x15 cab.

    For guitar, 12" guitar are the most popular across all genres. Some smaller guitar amps will use 10" speakers and arrays of 10" speakers (either 2x10 or 4x10) are common in country music. 15" speakers are very rare. Yeah, and never a dual concentric driver with horn. That would tear your head off. Way way back in the day, someone I used to jam with acquired an old Altec cab and tried to use it for guitar. I can still feel the ice pick in my ear.

    This is getting way off topic, but here's a bit of trivia. John Cippolina, Quicksilver Messenger Service, used to have a couple of PA horns hooked up to his guitar amp on a switch. He would kick them in only when he wanted extreme amounts of treble. I believe that you can hear on his "Who Do You Love" solo. But you know cutting through large rooms was a problem back then. Now most pros mic up through PA systems which can more than handle the job.
     
  10. chervokas

    chervokas Senior Member

    Furthermore, with most passive pickup and 500K pots, the signal coming from the guitar is probably rolling off pretty substantially above 5kHz, so, you really don't need a crossover to a tweeter to get a classic electric guitar sound. If you want a big full range sound out of an electric guitar use active pickups and PA speakers -- that's probably not the sound most guitarists are looking for, certainly not most rock guitarists.

    But yeah, off topic, the on-topic point is that Altec 604's are a peculiar two-way driver system with I presume some kind of characteristic sound (I haven't heard 'em) that's probably more attributable to those unique characteristics of it's construction -- like the multicell horn loaded compression tweeter mounted in the center of the paper woofer cone -- than to the magnet type. A 604 with an AlNiCo magnet and one with a ceramic magnet are more likely to sound like one another than a 604 with an AlNiCo magnet and a vintage Jensen guitar driver with an AlNiCo magnet.
     
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  11. raferx

    raferx Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vancouver, Canada
    Playing Devil's Advocate once again, I'm going to suggest to arrange a listen to Audio Note UK AN-E/Spe HE (98 dB) or AN-E/Spe (94 dB) speakers.
    Or even the Spe HE Signature.
    The AN-E/Spe or HE variant could very well replace my Harbeth M30.1s if they prove to be their sonic equal, albeit, with much improved efficiency.
    A feature that could mean superior performance from my Audio Note Oto SE.
     
  12. raferx

    raferx Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vancouver, Canada
  13. Erocka2000

    Erocka2000 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY, USA
    Yeah, but the AudioNote speakers add a whole other problem of then having to place them in corners. I would definitely go with Orangutans before AudioNotes, based on his listening preferences.
     
  14. raferx

    raferx Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vancouver, Canada
    They recommend corner placement, if you talk to owners or people familiar with them, it's not a necessity.

    To quote Steve Hoffman:
    "I don't have my AN-E/SPe speakers in the corners and they work fine, image well, all the good stuff. It's just about reinforcing the bass, that's all."

    To quote Art Dudley:
    "I can say with confidence that an AN-E Lexus Signature, positioned approximately 4 [feet] from the wall behind it and a little more than 2 [feet] from the sidewall, exhibited the same basic frequency response as when standing in the corner—except, of course, for that bottom octave."
     
    Last edited: Oct 23, 2014
  15. Erocka2000

    Erocka2000 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY, USA
    Right, but didn't Brian want really deep bass?
     
  16. raferx

    raferx Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vancouver, Canada
    I'm not sure at all, but I'd be curious to know if the Shindos he's interested in go as low as the AN-E which routinely measures in-room freqs down to the mid-30s without being in the corners AFAIK.
     
  17. Larry I

    Larry I Senior Member

    Location:
    Washington, D.C.
    Audionote speakers ARE very good alternatives--they are in the same family of sound as the Shindo and DeVore speakers so they have the same kind of musicality. Like those speakers, they sound harmonically dense and colorful, not bleached and thin sounding like a lot of high-end speakers, while somehow remaining quite lively sounding (some warmer sounding speakers end up sounding muddled and sluggish, not these speakers). The upper bass on the AN-Es tends to be a bit overblown and I don't think these speakers go very deep (something I personally don't care that much about). In a lot of rooms, they actually sound a bit more balanced if placed out of the corners of the room. It is simply amazing what can be done with simple, two-way designs with superb execution.
     
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  18. jh901

    jh901 Forum Resident

    Location:
    PARRISH FL USA
    Which hi-end speakers are known to be "bleached and thin sounding"?
     
  19. Brian Gupton

    Brian Gupton Forum Resident Thread Starter

    I never really said I was after deep bass. I'm more interested in a speaker that pressurizes a room in a way that emotionally engages you with the music. I'd say I'm more interested in musical bass - the right tone from it - than something "deep" (whatever deep means). :)
     
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  20. raferx

    raferx Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vancouver, Canada
    That's great... I'm in the same camp. I think you'd be doing yourself a disservice to not at least try to hear an AN UK speaker set-up. Especially since I think even the Signature Spe's would be competitive from a price standpoint.
     
  21. Larry I

    Larry I Senior Member

    Location:
    Washington, D.C.
    To me, most of the Magico line sounds unnatural because instruments lack weight, and body and harmonic richness--very bleached and thin sounding. The same can be said of Thiel, Raidho, and to some extent, YG (although I like YG MUCH more than I do Magico). A lot of other speakers, err on the side of sounding a bit lifeless and dull at lower volume levels compared to the better high efficiency speakers; these include MBL, Vandersteens, Maggies and Avalons. I actually like a lot of speakers from these brands and I recognize that they all have many appealing qualities, so I am being hypercritical and I have somewhat exaggerated the negative qualities to highlight the differences from my preferred speakers.

    The high efficiency speakers I like tend to have a different set of weaknesses, primarily tonal oddities--midrange and upper midrange peaks, poor deep bass response, nasal sounding tonal colorations and less than ideal tonal balance for orchestral music (strings sound too strident and bass does not have enough weight). A lot of modern horn systems and systems using fullrange drivers stray much too far from tonal neutrality for my taste, so what I am saying is that I really love only a small subset of high efficiency speakers. I particularly like systems built around certain compression drivers--Western Electric 555 midranges, Western 713 drivers, certain IPC drivers, ALE drivers and certain "fullrange" drivers that are used not as fullrange drivers (e.g., Jensen M-10 fieldcoisl used as bass/midrange drivers).

    One current, modern, design I am interested in giving a serious audition (I heard it at a show), is the Surreal Sound speaker. This utilizes multiple woofers in pushpull dipole configuration, active crossover and built in Class D amp for the woofers, and a Lowther driver that has been turned into a fieldcoil midrange/tweeter. What I heard at the show was an astonishingly fast and dynamic speaker that managed to avoid sounding excessively hard-edged and which had a very good overall tonal balance. I was particularly surprised by the fact that most of the sound was being produced by the Lowther fieldcoil. I have heard that driver used in other systems and found it to be WAY too peaky and strident--this just goes to show that it is how a particular component is utilized that matters most.
     
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  22. DaveC113

    DaveC113 Forum Resident

    Location:
    Front Range CO
    Alnico drivers tend to work best on acoustic music imo... They sound more laid back, so it takes some time to get used to, but they offer good detail and non-fatiguing sound. I actually prefer a good ferriTe driver for most music I listen to.
     
  23. Quiet Earth

    Quiet Earth Forum Resident

    Hi everyone,
    I'm new to the forum and I want to make a comment about Alnico and Audio Note.

    First of all, thank you Brian for asking the question about Alnico. I have been slowly building an AudioNote system for almost a decade and yet I have never heard one of their Alnico speakers. I always wondered what the difference was in some of their speaker models when all they list is Alnico magnets as being the upgrade. Well, you guys have given me a pretty good idea of what Alnico is all about, so thanks for the explanations and descriptions. I would be willing to guess that if you are going to purchase an Alnico based speaker, all of your associated gear should be selected to bring out the very best of it. Otherwise, it might not be something that you need to worry too much about. Please correct me if I am wrong.

    When it comes to Audio Note, getting their Alnico version is extremely expensive (and way beyond my reach in the model E). I can only imagine that they expect you will already have the appropriate gear to enjoy what Alnico can do.

    You have just described the Audio Note sound in a nutshell. And that is without Alnico.

    One man's problem is another man's blessing. I am so glad that I don't have to place my speakers four feet out into the room anymore. I do understand that some people don't have corners to use but most people have a rear wall. Rear wall placement is the second best way to get the most out of them.
     
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  24. Quiet Earth

    Quiet Earth Forum Resident

    In my room the bass actually tightens up the closer you get them to the corners or the side walls. I have mine about two inches from each side wall and 18 inches from the back. They are virtually in the corners.

    I understand your concern though, and bass quality is ultimately a personal choice. As far as deep bass goes, most people ask me where the subwoofer is hiding. It's always fun to tell them there is no subwoofer at all.

    Even more fun to explain to them that the amp only puts out 8 watts. :)
     
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  25. Larry I

    Larry I Senior Member

    Location:
    Washington, D.C.
    Quiet Earth,

    I have some really bad news for you when it comes to AN-Es. The model with the separate crossover box and Sogon wiring between the crossover and the drivers is REALLY nice sounding. My dealer had that model in stock but could not find a buyer given how expensive it is. He finally sold it at a greatly reduced price after he replaced the Sogon wire with Lexus copper wiring. I heard this downscaled speaker and it still sounded fantastic. I was one of the purchasers of the silver wire for my system.

    It is somewhat amusing to explain to people that the amp is only 8 watts. My Kageki is actually rated at even lower wattage, and it has a higher output than my other amp, which is a pushpull amp that puts out 5 watts. What I DON'T say is how much these amps cost, because that would only confirm how crazy I am.
     
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