Bad sounding inner grooves that aren't distorted. Advice?

I'm not sure about the VPI jig and what your experiencing. At one time there was some question raised about the jig set-up Harry used... Don't want to add to the confusion here but...
http://www.vinylengine.com/vpi-tonearm-geometry.shtml

 

numanoid, did you but this cartridge used? If so, you might have bought a defective cartridge that the previous owner was all too happy to get rid of. I'm not averse to buying used audio equipment but a cartridge is one thing I definitely would not buy used. With a new cart, if there's a problem you can replace it with another, with a used cart you are s..t out of luck.

I've heard a Cadenza Bronze (on an SME table) and playback was superb from the outer grooves to the very inner grooves, there was absolutely no audible loss of fidelity when it approached the end of the sides. All this stuff about azimuth and SRA are to fine tune and further increase the performance, honestly it should have sounded damn good from the get go assuming it was aligned properly and you set the arm at parallel.

 

No this was a brand new cartridge. That's what's so frustrating.

I adjusted things a bit more yesterday and the results are a little better. Some records do sound acceptable. Others not so much. The inner track on that Smiths record, Cemetry Gates, has always been brittle sounding on every set up I've had. It also doesn't help that it's a used record, though it appears near mint. Perhaps I'm chasing a problem that's baked into the record. And if it's the record, I don't care how nice it is to have an original promo, I'll grab a reissue.

I did re-adjust the azimuth to balance crosstalk between both channels, and I put the arm tube back to parallel (it's a tapered arm, I did it so its parallel from the top). I also put the vtf back at the recommended setting for the VPI. I will record an inner groove on a new record and post it, as well as maybe one of those to get opinions again.

 

Do you have the original Brit pressings of the Smiths on Rough Trade? Like with XTC on Brit Island Records, they put our copies to shame.

 

I have US and UK pressings of all the Smiths records except The Queen Is Dead. That one I only have a US pressing of unfortunately. How do the recent reissues compare to original UK pressings?

 

I'm told by a friend who's judgement I trust, they are very nice and comparable to original UKs. But I haven't heard one yet. Have most all original titles as UK pressings and still enjoy them.

 

I wouldn’t give up yet on such a big investment but I feel your pain. Spending a lot of money doesn't guarantee good results.

I had a similar struggle with my Van Den Hul MC one. A long story short is I got this AP "ultimate" test LP and adjusted my azimuth for perfect crosstalk balance. Seemingly unrelated to this event I noticed what I thought was tracking distortion. I figured it was a worn needle because I had maybe 3000 records on it at the time. So I sent it back to VDH for a complete rebuild. I get it back and guess what, I had the same distortion. The test record wanted me to adjust my azimuth a degree or so clockwise from level and it screwed everything up. This cartridge has about a quarter of a degree of play on the azimuth before it affects the the tracking ability of the cartridge (even more than anti-skating settings).

These needle shapes are much more sensitive to azimuth than conical shapes. The drag changes drastically as you change the azimuth. Unlike conicals or standard ellipticals that still have a conical type of contact patch. Picture a ball in a 90 degree v shaped groove. As you rotate the ball in the groove it still makes contact at the same two distinct points. Now picture a 90 degree V shaped object that fits the v shaped groove perfectly. Rotate it and you will see that one side will ride very high on its groove wall and the other will only contact a small point by its tip very low on the opposite groove wall.

It took me a few years to figure this out but I would only play a few records with the rebuilt cartridge and take it off due to the poor performance. Another factor in the tracking with the VDH was the new specs said the VTF was 1.35g to 1.5g and I need 1.7g with my Well Tempered Tonearm for reliable tracking.

The takeaways I see from all my frustration are,

1) Extended line contact needles are sensitive to diamond contact patch azimuth. The drag changes drastically between the two groove walls with diamond azimuth.

2) Measurements of crosstalk and channel balance don't tell you much if anything about how your diamond is sitting in the groove. They only tell you if your coils are at perpendicular to the groove walls of the record you're measuring (a completely different thing).

3) An extreme stylus shape was probably adjusted so it performs ok when the cartridge is parallel to the record. These are hand built, not some magic micro machinery building these. There are videos of actual people grinding and shaping the actual needles used on Ortofon cartridges by hand. I'm sure the final assembly is tuned by real people by hand also.

Just the current state of my understanding at this point of the path.

 

Where I have it now it looks to be about 1-2 degrees counter clockwise. That's after re-adjusting the other day to make crosstalk even between both channels. Using the "sum to mono" way of aligning, it was more perpendicular to the record. Which one sounds better? Neither, really. I'm going to make a few recordings today now that I have some time and get some opinions. Like I was saying before, some albums sound fine, but others are miserable, which makes me think that this stylus profile might work for most records, but not all, and perhaps that has something to do with it trying to recreate a cutting head. It seems like that would vary from record to record depending on the lathe used to cut it.

 

Well criticism should be accurate to be fair. The VPI turntable has nothing to do with IGD, it's the tonearm and cartridge that influence mistracking. The first VPI tonearm was introduced in the late 90s and so all VPI turntables produced before then came with a different tonearm. In addition VPIs can be assembled with different tonearms now for most models I believe. I think it is fair to say that the VPI Tonearm is a bit more sensitive to the kind of cartridge it is paired with than some others based on the postings I've seen. However most versions of the turntable itself are extremely functional and well proven. I have VPI turntables but paired with Origin Live tonearms. Just my experience and observation.

 

I agree, I meant tonearm more than turntable. I think the arm and cartridge make a big deal , especially on a unipivot. Also after more tweaking, this sounds much better with the tail down. I've been recording and comparing to the records digital counterpart, and I've got it close. Some records still sound bad. I think it's just a mediocre pressing with some records. You can't win them all. I'll post samples soon.

 

Ok guys, one last thing about this before I call it a day.

I'm pretty sure this is a damping issue with the tonearm at this point. So should I...

Sell the bronze for something that pairs better with this arm, losing some money in the process but not having to shell out any for something new, or
Wait until I get my taxes, trade the Scout II in for a Classic or Prime and keep the cartridge, or
Possibly upgrade the arm on the Scout II, or
Sell the VPI for something else in the $2000 range

I told myself I would never spend as much as I already have on a turntable, and I really expected it to last forever. My top budget for turntable, cartridge, and phono amp were $5000, and I'm slightly above that but I got good deals on a few items so it's okay.

Thanks everyone, but after spending about 30 hours over the last two weeks messing with it, I'm pretty sure it's not an alignment issue. It sounds fine until a certain point, then "esses" just distort. All records, new and used. The table on it's own should sound fine, as the bronze also should. So I don't think they play well together.

 

Its physics love
Linear speed decreases towards disc centre
Fidelity drops
Its that simple.