Sinatra / Capitol Sound Quality (and general discussion): Singles, Soundtracks, Etc.

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by MLutthans, Aug 10, 2013.

  1. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Continuing with the tracks that appear on the HD download of This is Sinatra, here's Three Coins in the Fountain:

    http://www.11fifty.com/Site_108/1954_-_SinglesEtc6.html
    (toward the bottom of the page).

    If you don't want to scan through that page to find the clip, here's the clip from the HD version: http://www.11fifty.com/Site_108/1954_-_SinglesEtc6_files/ThreeCoinsClipHiRez-GAIN_01-02.wav

    For comparison, here's the oft-praised mastering from Collectors Series: http://www.11fifty.com/Site_108/1954_-_SinglesEtc6_files/ThreeClipCapitolYears-GAIN_01.wav

    To my ears, there's a sheet (not a blanket like on some tracks, just a sheet) over everything on the HD version. Sounds dull to me.

    Please feel free to listen and chime in. Opinions wanted, as always.
     
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  2. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Next up: The Gal that Got Away

    This is a track where the HD download really falls off the rails, IMO. It has dark tone, a severely lacking top end (and complete loss of airy-ness, as a result), and greatly compromised dynamics:
    GalThatGotAwayHD-5357.gif
    A clip is now on this page: http://www.11fifty.com/Site_108/1954_-_SinglesEtc8.html

    Direct access to clip: http://www.11fifty.com/Site_108/1954_-_SinglesEtc8_files/GalClipHiRez-GAIN_01.wav
    Clip from one of my top choices for this track, the UK 1953-1957 CD set: http://www.11fifty.com/Site_108/1954_-_SinglesEtc8_files/GalClip5357-GAIN_01.mp3

    Here's a transition that starts with the UK CD, and transitions to the HD version at the word "game:" https://app.box.com/s/9wokdxzn7itt7g5dcy8m
     
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  3. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Moving from 1954 into 1955, Learnin' the Blues: http://www.11fifty.com/Site_108/1955_-_SinglesEtc14.html

    This has been discussed somewhat over in the This is Sinatra thread, but here's another one where dynamics really take a kick in the shorts in the new HD version:
    LearninTheBlues5357-2014HD.gif
    Dark tone, no dynamics, zero zip, etc. Clips are at the link above, if you want to peck around and find one you like.

    In fact, here's direct access to the HD version: http://www.11fifty.com/Site_108/1955_-_SinglesEtc14_files/LearninClipHiRez-GAIN_01.wav
    and the excellent Collectors Series mastering from 1989: http://www.11fifty.com/Site_108/195...he BluesClipCollectorsSeries-GAIN_01-03.L.mp3
     
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  4. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    On to Love and Marriage, October 15, 1955: http://www.11fifty.com/Site_108/1955_-_SinglesEtc16.html

    Ooo, boy. Waveforms ≠ sound quality. I preach that all the time. They can, however, help illustrate why things sound the way they do. (Sometimes.....) Here's Love and Marriage from one of the better masterings out there (and many have this general look):
    Screen shot 2014-10-27 at 3.16.19 PM.jpg
    See those increasing peaks just right of center? That's the famous ya-da-da-dah-dum part that became famous in the closing credits of Married with Children. The orchestra starts quiet, then gets louder with each measure. It should get louder on the recording, too, and it is visible above.
    Here's the same thing from the 2014 HD download:
    HD.jpg
    Poof -- the crescendo, she is gone! Kamarr would be proud!
    cropped-21.jpg

    Again, it's hard to convey the issues that these reduced dynamics bring to the mix of things, but here's the excellent Collectors Series clip:
    http://www.11fifty.com/Site_108/1955_-_SinglesEtc16_files/LoveAndClipCollectors-GAIN_01.wav

    Here's the 2014 HD version: http://www.11fifty.com/Site_108/1955_-_SinglesEtc16_files/LoveandClip2014HD.wav

    Again, it's not a blanket, but it's a definite sheet.

    Same horse; different beating.
     
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  5. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Last one from this set of 2014 downloads, The Tender Trap -- worst of a mediocre-to-poor bunch, IMO. You can hear a clip on this page: http://www.11fifty.com/Site_108/1955_-_SinglesEtc17.html or via direct link, here: http://www.11fifty.com/Site_108/195...ender Trap (AIFF 96.0 kHz 24-GAIN_02-03.L.wav

    Here's a clip that runs in this order:
    •2014 HD
    •1989 Collectors Series
    •2014 HD
    •1989 Collectors Series
    •repeat of the big brass flourish from 2014 HD

    Click to listen: https://app.box.com/s/auqcdy8qmhfib03f21u9
     
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  6. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Dear patient and tolerant Sinatra nuts --

    Here are the next two songs coming up on the singles survey, taken from an online listing that I realize is not 100% complete:

    a. E16217 Your Love For Me (Barry Parker) / arr: Nelson Riddle
    Capitol LP 12": DNFR-7630 — The Sinatra Touch (1968)
    Capitol/World Record Club (UK) LP 12": SM-137/138/139/140/141/142 — The Sinatra Touch (1969)
    Capitol/MFP (UK) LP 12": MFP-1324 — Sunday And Every Day With Frank Sinatra (1969)
    Capitol/Pickwick LP 12": PC-3458 — This Love Of Mine (1969)
    Capitol/Pickwick LP 12": SPC-3458 — This Love Of Mine (1969)
    Capitol/Pickwick LP 12": SPCB-3492 — Sinatra Special (1973)
    Longines Symphonette LP 12": LS-308A — Sinatra: The Works (1973)
    b. E16218-6 Can I Steal A Little Love (Phil Tuminello) / arr: Nelson Riddle
    EMI (UK) LP 12": ENC-101 — When Your Lover Has Gone (1961)
    Both titles on: Capitol 78: 3608
    Capitol 45: 3608
    Capitol LP 12": T-2602 — Forever Frank (1966)
    Capitol LP 12": DT-2602 — Forever Frank (1966)
    Capitol CD: C2 8 38089 2 — The Complete Capitol Singles Collection (1996)

    The bold items are ones that I already have, including two copies of the D3/D1 cut of 45 #3608, and I also have two Japanese releases with these two tunes: The Hit Maker LP and The Hit Collection CD.

    I assume that the red titles will be Duophonic, so....who cares about those.

    Questions:

    •Does anybody have the mono Forever Frank, and can you confirm that it is "wet?" I'm 98% sure it is, but would like to know for sure.
    •How about the releases in green? Anybody have those? If they are mono and dry -- or if you can't tell but think they may be -- could you share clips for comparison?
    •Any other versions out there?
    •Anybody have a different cut of the 45?

    Thanks,
    Matt
     
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  7. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Bozburn has an "N" 45. Thanks! Anybody else?
     
  8. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Backing up a bit to South of the Border:

    My pal Craig has the new This is Sinatra LP, so I went to his apartment earlier and did some listening, and things seem to correspond pretty well with the clips that @AxeD sent me several days ago. The LP largely comes across to me as a mixed bag, and tonally, most of it is not my cup of tea (although a few cuts come off much more to my liking than others -- we'll get to those later), but one cut was of special interest to me, and that's South of the Border. Some of you oldies may recall things like this cropping up in earlier discussions of this tune:
    What ensued was a bunch of back and forth about, oddly, the heavily compressed version from the otherwise deservedly ridiculed The Sinatra Touch mono LP set from 1968, and the reason that some of us spoke well of it at first blush is that it had -- uniquely -- warmer overall tone than the "good" choices that we were comparing at the time. In the end, I think we collectively poo-pood that Sinatra Touch version, though. I did a little futile tinkering in an effort to warm-up some other versions, but finally punted on that, and just accepted that the versions that are good out there are on the thin side. No big deal

    .....but I haven't forgotten my general unhappiness with the choices out there.

    To that end, here are two level-matched, one-minute clips (both of which fall within the 90-second iTunes sample window):
    1989's Collectors Series CD
    2014 LP (graciously provided by @AxeD -- thanks!)

    I'd be most pleased if a few of our good-eared folks (that's you!) here could have a listen and post your thoughts. There is no "right answer," so nobody's going to pick on your opinion. I'm just curious what you think of the sound on these two. They are VERY different, and I can hear pros and cons in each.

    Thanks!
     
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  9. SinatraFan

    SinatraFan Well-Known Member

    South Of The Border

    Thanks for the clips, Matt. The CD version is the one I'm most familiar with and, to me, it is clearer sounding. With the vocal standing out and I agree that it is a little on the thin side. For the LP, it looses some clarity but seems warmer and fuller. The vocal and orchestra have a more cohesive sound. I haven't decided which version I prefer.
     
  10. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    That's okay. Awesome details in your post!
     
  11. aoxomoxoa

    aoxomoxoa I'm an ear sitting in the sky

    Location:
    USA
    Matt. I like the LP here better, it has a warmer analogue feel. Although I agree the CD has a clarity that is missing in the 2014.
     
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  12. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Excellent! Thanks, @aoxomoxoa. Anybody else have a chance to listen to the two clips in post #239?

    Also, last call for other versions of Your Love for Me and Can I Steal a Little Love, from post #237.
     
  13. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Billboard blurb about the next two songs we'll be checking out:
    Screen shot 2014-10-31 at 11.47.57 AM.png
    Screen shot 2014-10-31 at 11.47.33 AM.png
    While the first time(?) Sinatra did a song from a Rock & Roll movie, this strikes me as Sinatra's second pass at a rock & roll-ish backing beat, the first being Hey! Jealous Lover, released three months earlier. (Were there any before that? None come immediately to mind. EDIT: The two songs with The Nuggets? Maybe.....)
    61uditf3BBL.jpg
    Sinatra was not 100% immune to occasional nods to "trends of the day!"
    (By the way, Crazy, Man, Crazy -- not in the movie, but mentioned (by accident???) in the poster -- is one of my favorite early rock & roll songs. If you don't know it, you should track down the Bill Haley version.)

    Ah, heck. Off-topic, but here ya go:
     
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  14. Simon A

    Simon A Arrr!

    John Saxon in a teenage flick! I'd love to see that one!
     
  15. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    One more little odd thing to ponder regarding the Your Love for Me / Can I Steal a Little Love session of December 3, 1956. As far as I know, this is the last Sinatra session from what I would term "The Capitol recordings made at the Capitol Tower mono-only era." Capitol was already doing some 3-track recording at Goldwyn, and Verve Records was already doing some stereo recording at the tower, but to my knowledge, the first 3-track recording made by Capitol at Capitol for Capitol was Black Satin by George Shearing, which commenced recording on December 18, 1956, two weeks after this session

    Also, I haven't ever tried to figure out who recorded these two titles, but these are the last two Sinatra titles that may have been live-mixed by John Palladino, who moved from mixing to producing in December of 1956. One of John's first jobs as producer was to oversee Capitol's new (and excellent) stereo tape division, and he may have done the 3- to 2-track mixdown for that wonderful 1957 Where Are You #ZD-17 two-track open reel release. (He definitely did some of these titles, but it's unknown if he did the Sinatra title.)
     
    Last edited: Oct 31, 2014
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  16. MMM

    MMM Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Lodi, New Jersey
    Sort of proto-rockin' Frank (1952):

     
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  17. wvk3

    wvk3 Senior Member

    Location:
    Brooklyn, NY
    For the most part, I prefer the CD -- for the same reasons of "clarity" that others have mentioned. The one thing I do prefer on the LP are the sections where the horns really blare out. It's a little harsh on the CD, while the warmth of the LP mitigates that for me.
     
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  18. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Moving on with NEW tracks for this thread!

    Here are comparisons for Your Love for Me, from December 3, 1956. (Some discussion already started a few posts back.)

    Clips here: http://www.11fifty.com/Site_108/1956_-_SinglesEtc29.html

    IMO, chalk another one up for the 1982 Japanese The Hit Maker compilation LP.
     
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  19. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

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  20. MMM

    MMM Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Lodi, New Jersey
    The obvious choice here!
     
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  21. MMM

    MMM Forum Hall Of Fame

    Location:
    Lodi, New Jersey
    What about the COLLECTORS SERIES disc? Wrong tapes for some reason? I don't remember off-hand...
     
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  22. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    Re: Can I Steal a Little Love
    Well, I *asked* if anybody knew of any other versions (below)!
    I totally forgot it was on there! :laugh: I'll add it in a few minutes. Stand by!
     
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  23. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

  24. MLutthans

    MLutthans That's my spaghetti, Chewbacca! Staff Thread Starter

    From the "What took so long" department:

    On the home page at www.11fifty.com, I now have links, by year, to the Sinatra singles reviews.
     
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  25. colormesinatra

    colormesinatra Forum Resident

    Location:
    Malverne, NY
    Matt,

    With this new round of LPs coming out, are you going to add another column to the Capitol scorecard for the latest masterings?
     

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