new wide screen HD presentation of "The Wire" (?)

Discussion in 'Visual Arts' started by toptentwist, Sep 3, 2014.

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  1. Deesky

    Deesky Forum Resident

    Did Cranston have any fame prior to Breaking Bad? Sure, he starred in a moderately successful sitcom, but his true fame exploded after his Walter White role, to the point that he's got top billing in all kinds of movies now.
     
  2. Maggie

    Maggie like a walking, talking art show

    Location:
    Toronto, Canada
    He was nominated for an Emmy 3 times for Malcolm in the Middle and he had also had a recurring role in Seinfeld...no doubt it took Breaking Bad to make him a star, but he was more than familiar as a character actor. You can't really say that about anyone on The Wire before The Wire.
     
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  3. Vidiot

    Vidiot Now in 4K HDR!

    Location:
    Hollywood, USA
    This is a little difficult to see (couldn't find a bigger illo), but check this out:

    [​IMG]

    You can see that the 3-perf frame is smaller, but it's the right dimensions for 16x9 (aka 1.78). For TV, you'd shoot in 3-perf and then home viewers would just see a square frame, obscuring the left and the right areas. It was really done to save money, since this way a 1000' roll of film ran 14 minutes instead of about 11.5 minutes. The small blow-up needed to do 4x3 didn't really matter, because the grain size of the Vision2 and Vision3 negatives was so small anyway.

    Many, many 1990s TV shows were shot in 3-perf after Warner Bros. decreed that this would "future proof" their film shows in the next decade, when 16x9 and HD were expected to take off. As far as I know, Friends was the first show to shoot in 3-perf (at least that I saw), though there may have been others. The transition was long, because there were never as many 3-perf cameras as there were 4-perf cameras, so there was a period when 3-perf and 4-perf were both being shot... sometimes on the same show! It was a confusing time, roughly 1994-2004. From 2004 on, damn near everything was 3-perf, but then film essentially dried up around 2010.

    I think the creator of the show actually liked 4x3 for some reason and felt it deglamorized the show. I agree that the wider frame is disconcerting to some and might actually look "too pretty" in a sense. But looking it strictly from a dollars-and-cents point of view, I believe from the bottom of my heart that great TV shows will be overlooked and put on the shelf if they cling to 4x3. Station managers, cable channel owners, and younger viewers expect to see 16x9 on their HD TV sets.
     
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  4. AZRunner

    AZRunner Forum Resident

    Location:
    SW FL
    Awards mean nothing, they rarely get it right. That said, both are great shows, both are very different. I don't see the need for a shootout between the two.
     
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  5. Roland Stone

    Roland Stone Offending Member

    Vidiot,

    I seem to recall Simon claiming that the show was not blocked/composed/shot for 16X9. I'm confused when people can say they can transfer THE WIRE to 16X9 without chopping or the risk of wrecking the compositions and framing. Do they typically film more (vertically and horizontally) than they use in the final cut? If so, wouldn't there be material that shouldn't be in frame, like microphones and random other stuff on the sides, were they to attempt to re-configure the framing?
     
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2014
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  6. shucky ducky

    shucky ducky Forum Resident

    Location:
    Arizona
    Seeing Richard Belzer as an extra in the bar always wakes me out of 'the illusion of make believe' during that last season.

    I'm also impressed by the quality of actors David Simon got to fill all these rolls. Some standout acting in the roles of Bubbles, Omar, Prop Joe, Lester, Cedric, Rawls, Kima, Bunk, Carver, Wee bey, Bodie, Poot, Wallace, Stringer, Avon, Snoop, Randy, Namond, Bunny... and on and on.
     
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2014
  7. Vidiot

    Vidiot Now in 4K HDR!

    Location:
    Hollywood, USA
    It'll be fine. I've worked on at least 30 different 16x9 series -- there's always cases where you have to reposition a little bit here and there. I don't dispute that the framing may have been optimized for 4x3, but that doesn't mean you can't get a pleasing picture out of a 16x9 frame. And the important consideration is that they won't have to lop off the bottom 25% of the frame to create 16x9 -- the 16x9 information is already there.

    Seinfeld is an example of a 4x3 4-perf show where if you transfer it in 16x9, it's a big compromise. The Simpsons is another one.
     
  8. toptentwist

    toptentwist Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Houston, TX
    I watched the first episode of "The Wire" (Season 1, Ep 1) again the other night, to see if I thought if it was framed for 4x3, 16x9 or "both" and I came to the conclusion that it seems to have been framed for "both"...

    I tried to mentally replace the black pillar box bars I was seeing on the left and right with visual content and I came to the conclusion that *if* that content was added back in - everything else would (probably) remain the same. Namely, the 4x3 image is a "square" box inside of a "rectangular" box (which is what I believe Vidiot has said several times in this thread).

    In one case, I thought I noticed a potential improvement. There was a conversation where two or three characters were in the frame, but the character on the extreme right or left was only *partly* there, like the "box" inside the "rectangle" cut him off. I'm thinking that when the same scene is remastered for 16x9 we will see the full person.

    It seems to me like the most difficult part of the show to convert will be the title sequence.

    This isn't a case where a theatrical released was filmed for display in 2.35 with characters at the extreme left and right of the frame talking to each other.

    I don't believe the first season of "The Sopranos" was broadcast using a 16x9 format. But the show was very successful, and the early episodes were remastered fairly quickly and no one complained.

    I think it will be as simple as that.


    I'm curious if the person who mentioned up thread something about watching the first 8 or 9 episodes of "The Wire" on Amazon Prime in 16x9 (before they were pulled), has a comment about the quality of the experience.

    The news item my son showed me before I started this thread seemed to infer that Amazon Prime had a Simpsons-esque conversion - but I'm not sure much is known about what Amazon was streaming since very few eyes happened to find those (or realized that they were odd) before they were replaced...

    Animation is a special problem... there isn't much incentive to draw extra content outside the frame.

    I seem to remember one of the earlier Pixar movies actually did "draw" (or computer generate) completely different views for 4x3 and 16x9 versions of the same film.
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2014
  9. toptentwist

    toptentwist Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Houston, TX
    I watched some clip on youtube the other day where the actors from "The Wire" talked about the audition process.

    It was strange to hear about how many of the actors also read for other roles in the series. Like in an alternate universe, everyone on the show would be played by someone else on the show.

    I assume that's probably pretty normal for the casting process - but hearing each actor - in sequence - talk about the roles they didn't play was bizarre.

    And it's also bizarre (for me) to hear Dominic West (McNulty) use his native UK accent - and not his fake "Baltimore" accent.
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2014
  10. asindc

    asindc Jazzy Cyclist

    Absolutely. The Wire, apart from being well-produced, well-acted, and well-executed, is perhaps the most ruthlessly-authentic show in U.S. television history. Nothing fake, sugar-coated, or glossed over about it at all.
     
  11. Hi. That was me who saw the 16:9 on Amazon Prime before it suddenly shifted back 4:3. I'm not sure what you're asking, though. It looked like a fine 16:9 HD broadcast. It did not appear stretched are skewered in any way. It wasn't BD quality, in that it was still a stream. I would say 720p. I had never seen a single episode before, but I knew beforehand that it was shot in 4:3. I wasn't shocked to see the pilot in 16:9, because I had read that the first episode was shot in high-def (and a different aspect ratio?), but it was only until the 2nd episode was it a pleasant surprise that it was all WS.

    Anyway, I'm on Season 2, Episode 9 now. Ziggy is one helluva dummy.
     
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  12. toptentwist

    toptentwist Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Houston, TX
    The fact that it looked like "a fine 16:9 HD broadcast" is about all I was curious about.

    I realize a stream from Amazon might not be the same as a disc (and that it would be difficult to tell if the quality - or lack thereof - was related to the stream - or from the master).

    I saw a lot of bizarre claims on some other websites... one claiming that the show was "shot in SD" and "can never" be mastered to HD (followed by a response from someone saying that film is film - and it doesn't become SD *or* HD until the film is converted to a video format).

    For the record, I believe the "film is film" response was 100 percent accurate and I have no clue what the "shot in SD" commenter was trying to convey.
     
    Last edited: Sep 8, 2014
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  13. agentalbert

    agentalbert Senior Member

    Location:
    San Antonio, TX
    Too bad this so far has not materialized. With Boardwalk Empire just ending, I'm in the mood for a new crime drama. Hope this HD presentation of The Wire comes out soon.
     
  14. Roland Stone

    Roland Stone Offending Member

    IIRC, the show was pitched to HBO not as a novel-like portrayal of America's cities, but as the "anti-CSI/NCIS," wherein investigators have unlimited resources and manpower to throw at each and every crime. THE WIRE was going to show how a real murder investigation take place.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2014
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  15. chrischerm

    chrischerm Forum Resident

    I'm excited for this. I remember in the first 5 minutes of the show, (the sequence about SnotBoogie and "...this is America!",) and thinking to myself, 'This is gonna be a great show!'

    Season 4 will tear your heart out of your chest, but the show's got many memorable scenes. One of my favorite coming in Season 1 where Bunk and McNulty are looking for the bullet casing. Over the 5 minute segment, mimicking the actions of what they think happened, only one word is uttered (in several iterations,) as they piece together what actually happened, finding the casing in the grass.

    Fantastic show - can't wait for the blu-ray restoration...
     
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  16. Lucidae

    Lucidae AAD

    Location:
    Australia
    I also loved that scene. No need for expository dialogue or flashbacks? So many other shows could learn from this.
     
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  17. Roland Stone

    Roland Stone Offending Member

    One of the many things I loved about THE WIRE is that there were few review scenes, whereby the viewer is brought up to speed, usually via a summary provided to a new character or a report to a supervisor. Once you see a show that doesn't do that, you realize how much other procedurals just spoon-feed you everything -- and not just at the start of each show but after each commercial break.
     
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  18. Lucidae

    Lucidae AAD

    Location:
    Australia
    One of the biggest problems with Hollywood today, insulting the intelligence of the audience.
     
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  19. KevinP

    KevinP Forum introvert

    Location:
    Daejeon
    There was one scene in season 1 where the security guard who testified against D'angelo in ep1 was shot and killed, and there was a flashback to the testimony. David Simon didn't want that scene but HBO insisted. I think after that he had enough clout to avoid those scenes.
     
  20. Vidiot

    Vidiot Now in 4K HDR!

    Location:
    Hollywood, USA
    And the latest news is all the episodes are done and will air in a couple of weeks:

    All five seasons of the gritty HBO Baltimore series will be available in 16×9 full-frame HD for the first time, and HBO Signature will run them in order starting the day after Christmas. It’ll be the first time the ensemble drama starring Dominic West, Wendell Pierce, Idris Elba and dozens of others has aired on a linear channel since the show wrapped in 2008. The update also hits HBOGo on December 26. The Wire: The Complete Series also will be available for digital purchase starting January 5 and comes to Blu-ray in the summer.

    http://deadline.com/2014/12/the-wire-remastered-hd-hbo-1201306576/
     
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  21. Myke

    Myke Trying Not To Spook The Horse

    I enjoy what creator David Simon has to say : http://davidsimon.com/the-wire-in-hd/

    I'm personally not interested in alternate versions of scenes, let alone raping the OAR. To each his own.
     
  22. Vidiot

    Vidiot Now in 4K HDR!

    Location:
    Hollywood, USA
    Yes, here's his comments in full:

    “At the last, I’m satisfied what while this new version of ‘The Wire’ is not, in some specific ways, the film we first made, it has sufficient merit to exist as an alternate version. There are scenes that clearly improve in HD and in the widescreen format. But there are things that are not improved. And even with our best resizing, touch-ups and maneuver, there are some things that are simply not as good. That’s the inevitability: This new version, after all, exists in an aspect ratio that simply wasn’t intended or serviced by the filmmakers.

    “Still, being equally honest here, there can be no denying that an ever-greater portion of the television audience has HD widescreen televisions staring at them from across the living room, and that they feel notably oppressed if all of their entertainments do not advantage themselves of the new hardware. It vexes them in the same way that many with color television sets were long ago bothered by the anachronism of black-and-white films, even carefully conceived black-and-white films. For them, ‘The Wire’ seems frustrating or inaccessible — even more so than we intended it. And, hey, we are always in it to tell people a story, first and foremost. If a new format brings a few more thirsty critters to the water’s edge, then so be it.”


    http://variety.com/2014/tv/news/david-simon-weighs-in-on-hbos-hd-remastering-of-the-wire-1201369214/

    I think somebody got hold of him and said "shut up! We're making X million dollars with the new HD version!" :rolleyes:

    I would argue that a show looks different on an iPhone, or on a tablet, or on a computer screen, or on a small TV set, a big TV set, or in a theater. It always changes. Sometimes, the aspect ratio changes. The experience is always different, even if the content remains the same. But if it expands the potential audience, then find a way to give them what they want and optimize the experience as much as you can.
     
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  23. Geoff

    Geoff Senior Member

    Location:
    Roundnabout
    Any chance they will release a 4:3 Blu set as well? Two versions for two audiences?

    I would really love to replace my DVDs, but if 16:9 is the only option, they aren't going anywhere. :(
     
  24. agentalbert

    agentalbert Senior Member

    Location:
    San Antonio, TX
    Glad to know this is about to air. I've never seen the series and have been waiting for this.
     
  25. toptentwist

    toptentwist Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Location:
    Houston, TX
    I remember early on in the days of DVD, stumbling across several titles that had a 4:3 version on one side of the disc and 16:9 version on the reverse side of the disc.

    I can't remember if I own any titles like this. I think I have at least one - but I can't remember the title.

    At the time, I thought it was a trend and that we would be seeing this "dual AOR" product - but apparently the cost eventually discouraged it.

    I tried watching both sides on several discs - maybe not in full - but in part - to see if I spot issues...

    Much to my surprise there was one title where I felt like time and care had been in invested for BOTH transfers... meaning I was able to fully enjoy BOTH sides of the disc.

    That title was "The Big Lebowski".

    I think I was skeptical about the opening sequence - but I came to the conclusion that someone had gone through the trouble to compose the sequence from scratch... meaning things like words in the titles - and special effects - all looked correct for EACH version.

    The other thing I specifically remember is the scene where John Goodman is at the bowling alley and he has his ex-wife's dog with him seemed to make more sense in 4:3 - because you could see the dog cage while he was talking.... in contrast, the widescreen version
    had a conversation about something that was below the visual frame of reference.

    So for that specific scene - somehow the television aspect ratio (which was not how it was displayed in the theaters) was better.


    Addendum, the Pixar titles used to have both versions of a film on a disc - but I think they were one sided discs. What was odd about those is I believe Pixar used their computers to render the film for each aspect ratio. Again, *both* versions seemed correct when watched on a compatible television.
     
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