The Loudness War: Give It Up!

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by Mij Retrac, Oct 31, 2014.

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  1. Ham Sandwich

    Ham Sandwich Senior Member

    Location:
    Sherwood, OR, USA
    I can get dynamic masterings (high DR) plenty loud on my iPod. Just gotta use headphones that are efficient enough. And/Or buy a good external portable headphone amp.

    Best solution is to buy a good portable headphone amp. A good amp will make all headphones sound better, and will allow your audiophile headphones to get plenty loud enough.

    Most people listen to the equivalent of Beats or Bose and other headphones that will get plenty loud direct from an iPod, iPhone, or other typical portable. It's the audiophile headphones that are typically not efficient enough to get loud enough without an amp.
     
  2. dkmonroe

    dkmonroe A completely self-taught idiot

    Location:
    Atlanta
    Are you listening to your music in a steel mill or an automobile manufacturing plant, or some other really loud environment? I listen to my own needledrops and CD rips on a Sansa Clip with in-ear earbuds on a train every morning and evening, and I have no problem hearing dynamic recordings. If it's one guy playing a lute, I might have a problem, but not any pop music recordings that have adequate dynamic range or any orchestral or ensemble recording.
     
  3. Doug Sulpy

    Doug Sulpy Forum Resident

    Location:
    Pennsylvania
    The waveform is damn near brickwalled. How do you THINK the music (or what was once music) is going to sound? Like distorted, overblown noise that once used to be music, THAT'S how.
     
  4. Mij Retrac

    Mij Retrac Forum Resident Thread Starter

    I have yet to find really efficient headphones that sound that great to me and I have an external headphone amp but don't always have it with me, just one more thing to carry around.
     
  5. Mij Retrac

    Mij Retrac Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Usually when I'm mowing the lawn or snow blowing so yes very loud environments.
     
  6. Mij Retrac

    Mij Retrac Forum Resident Thread Starter

    I don't make assumptions about what it is going to sound like when I look at a waveform. I have found that it isn't always going to sound the way it looks. Funny how that works but it's true.
     
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  7. Dino

    Dino Forum Resident

    Location:
    Kansas City - USA
    Do you think that this a good reason for DR compression, Jim?
     
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  8. Mij Retrac

    Mij Retrac Forum Resident Thread Starter

    I think if I can't tell the difference (aka it's done well) yes. Also because most people don't listen through a nice system. They listen through there computer or cheap headphones or in a car and in those situations it makes sense as well.
     
  9. dkmonroe

    dkmonroe A completely self-taught idiot

    Location:
    Atlanta
    Heck yeah. The mastering engineer should always use a lawnmower or a snowblower when evaluating masterings.
     
  10. Dino

    Dino Forum Resident

    Location:
    Kansas City - USA
    I am curious, would it make sense to you for someone like Steve Hoffman - for example - to tailor his mastering to the people who "listen through there computer or cheap headphones or in a car"?
     
  11. Ham Sandwich

    Ham Sandwich Senior Member

    Location:
    Sherwood, OR, USA
    That's a problem with the good sounding over ear or on ear headphones. The good sounding ones need moar powah to sound good.

    Universal or custom IEMs would be an option. Very efficient. Will get plenty loud without needing an amp. But the good ones are expensive, especially the customs. And they're a bit of a PITA and have issues like microphonics. I haven't gone the IEM route yet.

    I just keep a portable amp always strapped to the back of my iPod. And I'm on the list for a Pono Player. With luck the Pono Player won't need an amp as badly as the iPod and I'll be able to use the Pono Player with the headphones I like without an amp. And Oppo recently announced a PM-3 headphone. A closed version of their PM-1/PM-2 ortho headphones. I want the PM-3. Maybe the combination of the Oppo PM-3 (and PM-2) and the Pono will give me portable audio nirvana.

    My strategy is to combat the loudness war with better gear that doesn't make loudnessed music sound awful. The right gear can make loudnessed music not sound as bad.
     
    Mij Retrac likes this.
  12. xcqn

    xcqn Audiophile

    Location:
    Gothenburg, Sweden
    Its crazy to master music for loud enviroments. Better if they introduce loudness chips in electronics. That way you can boost it if you want.

    often wonder why the companies do not release music with full-dynamics and just include a download-card or something with a brickwalled version

    Would be a very simple no-cost solution that makes everybody happy.
     
  13. Mij Retrac

    Mij Retrac Forum Resident Thread Starter

    Because 99% of the people that purchase music don't care about "full dynamics" and don't notice a difference on what they are listening to it on. Plus it wouldn't be a no cost solution because that would require two different masters and space on a server somewhere for the downloads. Both of which are money that the labels don't see the sense in spending if only 1 or 2% of your buying public would appreciate it. Also the thing you need to understand which they explained in I think Steve's article was that the final master is what the producer/artist want for the sound so why would they make two masters?
     
  14. Mij Retrac

    Mij Retrac Forum Resident Thread Starter

    No because someone like Steve Hoffman is not mastering albums for the masses. He is mastering albums for the 1% that want a more dynamic mastering. That is comparing apples to oranges here.
     
  15. xcqn

    xcqn Audiophile

    Location:
    Gothenburg, Sweden
    I dont get that logic. If i for example were a drummer i would have wanted my instrument to sound good. Not like i'm banging on tin-cans.

    With severe clipping it will probably never be one of those remembered albums either. People cant stand listen to it more than a couple of times. :D

    I think industry-people and producers are fooling musicians somehow. Telling them the album will sell better, this is what the kids want and whatnot.

    If they do not hear the difference as you say, why not just keep it dynamic?
     
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  16. Dino

    Dino Forum Resident

    Location:
    Kansas City - USA
    If it is well done (aka you can't tell the difference) why would that matter?
     
  17. Ham Sandwich

    Ham Sandwich Senior Member

    Location:
    Sherwood, OR, USA
    I can hear the difference. It does matter.

    On the other hand, I just finished listening to a song that is DR5. It was awesome. War on Drugs "Red Eyes". It is funny that the song following "Red Eyes" is "Suffering" at DR8. Letting you know that you just finished suffering through a song that was DR5. ;)
     
    Mij Retrac likes this.
  18. ganma

    ganma Senior Member

    Location:
    Earth
    Brickwalling is just biting the hand the feeds IMO. Who actually buys music these days? Sales are way down with the general public. It's us, the minority who actually care, who are still buying music.
    But no problem, I will vote with my wallet and spend money on used music from the pre-brickwalled era. Too bad some good artists will be missing out. If Youtube quality is good as it gets for modern recordings I'll just listen to their songs on Youtube. :shrug:
     
  19. Dino

    Dino Forum Resident

    Location:
    Kansas City - USA
    Jim had explained that it is a good idea to have music mastered with enough DR compression to enjoy while mowing the lawn or snow blowing:

     
  20. vonwegen

    vonwegen Forum Resident

    What a waste of time! Nobody is gonna bullish*t away the pain my ears get from brickwalled CDs. Which is why I won't touch any new artists--I know full well what the CD will sound like, and no way in hell will I fork over 30-30 Euros for an LP that might have a few good tunes.
     
    Dynamic Ranger and calpon like this.
  21. Ham Sandwich

    Ham Sandwich Senior Member

    Location:
    Sherwood, OR, USA
    Even in loud noisy listening environments it still matters. I know how to deal with getting the music loud enough or normalized enough or replay gained enough to be able to listen in louder environments. Even in loud environments I'd rather listen to the old AC/DC masterings than the modern remasters. I know how to make the old masterings work even in loud environments.

    It's funny. Back in the 80s nobody complained that the AC/DC CDs weren't loud enough. The band was loud. The music was loud. The sound was good. Nobody thought they weren't loud enough.
     
  22. strat95

    strat95 Senior Member

    Location:
    Toronto
    dobyblue, can you please elaborate on the RHCP Californication cut by CB? What exactly is this?
     
  23. sunspot42

    sunspot42 Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Francisco
    The loudness wars are killing music. Period. The labels are watching their sales collapse, and customers are flocking to streaming services where - from what I've read - a lot of what they're streaming is oldies. Also, I recall reading the results of a survey a couple of years ago which showed that music has become far less important to teens and twentysomethings than it was a decade or two ago. Of course it's less important - music where the dynamic range has been digitally crushed out of it is so distorted it sounds like loud, annoying noise. Who the **** wants to listen to that all the time? Nobody, that's who. So sales are in the toilet and even most kids detest all of the current acts. When your target market wants you dead, you have a problem.

    The labels are run by idiots, and I'm guessing most of them got their job thru their daddy or via the extensive use of kneepads. They will ride the compression train right off of a cliff. They are literally destroying their business with their head-up-their-*sses stupidity. Forget about the audiophiles, even kids with $10 earbuds think the music industry's product is pure, unadulterated ****.
     
  24. Nielsoe

    Nielsoe Forum Resident

    Location:
    Aalborg, Denmark
    Horrific. No music left. Just a wall of sound.
     
  25. Nielsoe

    Nielsoe Forum Resident

    Location:
    Aalborg, Denmark
    Word, my man.
     
    sunspot42 likes this.
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