Who did the master for the 2005 Ramones LPs?

Discussion in 'Music Corner' started by wiki, Nov 19, 2014.

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  1. wiki

    wiki Member Thread Starter

    I am talking about the ones put out on red vinyl, I think in 2005. They seem to be sold on eBay as a set, containing Ramones, Leave Home, Rocket to Russia, Road to Ruin, and End of the Century. The only information I can find on this release really is that they were "Manufactured by Rhino Records; exclusively distributed by Scorpio Music, Inc." I'm interested to know who is responsible for the mastering, and if a digital or analog source was used. I haven't been able to find much so I figured someone here might know.

    Thanks!
     
  2. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    No idea who mastered those, but Scorpio pressed LPs are generally hit or miss. Typically, they wouldn't use the original masters and the source is definitely digital.

    FWIW, Rhino did their own series of reissues of some of the Ramones stuff (I know at least the first lp) and these will be in a loose polybag with a Rhino 180 hype sticker. They're also more expensive. However, the Rhino 180 stuff is usually pressed better than anything by Scorpio or "Scorpio mfd. by Rhino".

    Anything Scorpio related is usually pressed at Rainbo. Rhino 180 is more likely to use a better plant, such as RTI.

    Also, Rhino 180 is unlikely to do an all analog mastering and pressing. There will be digital somewhere in the chain.

    If you are fixated on all analog, get older pressings done in the 70s.

    Honestly, in the case of the Ramones I would just recommend the individual reissued CDs with bonus tracks that Rhino did. You should be able to pick them up for $5-8 each, sealed.
     
  3. wiki

    wiki Member Thread Starter

    Hi, Thanks for the response. I actually have all their albums on CD, though I prefer vinyl. I don't mind digitally sourced vinyl as typically the digital source is 24-bit and often at least 48 Khz. Plus, regardless of the digital source, the DAC used to cut the lacquer is probably much higher than the DAC in my blu-ray player or lower end home theater. The reason I asked is I won an auction for their first 5 albums on these red vinyls for a really low price.
     
  4. Preston

    Preston Forum Resident

    Location:
    KCMO Metro USA
    I have original pressings bought near release dates and most of the Rhino re-issues. I think that the Rhinos sound very close to the original LPs, plus the vinyl is of much higher quality. The differences remind me of the differences between the Rhino Talking Heads re-issues and the original pressings. Some think the re-issues sound more "digital", which certainly may be the case. I'm wondering if the differences are due to cleaner sounding mastering chain and better pressings? They sound cleaner, but not harder (on my system). In all of these cases, you can't go wrong with either choice and they sound IMHO much better than the CD equivalent (again, in my system).

    As an aside, I also have the Talking Heads Brick Box Set (i.e., DVD-Audio discs) - which are recorded at 24-bit 96 kHz - and the re-issue LPs sound better than the DVD-As. IMHO.
     
  5. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    Wiki, just to clarify here, there is a difference between the Rhino pressings I think Preston is talking about (i.e. "real Rhinos" AKA Rhino 180s) and the "Scorpio manufactured by Rhino" pressings you just purchased. They're not the same and it is unlikely they are the same master. The Scorpio stuff is inexpensive by design. Most of their releases are budget pressings that should retail between $10-15 before you add in shipping. These have often have a gold 180 gram hype sticker or a white sticker on the shrinkwrap stating the LP is on colored vinyl (usually red). "Real Rhinos" retail for $18-25 and usually have a higher quality mastering and pressing. The hype sticker on those will say Rhino in red/black/white.

    Re: Talking Heads, I don't have Brick, but I have the UK CD/DVD combos of Fear, Remain in Light, and Speaking. I've compared the audio CDs, the hi-rez remaster, and the 5.1 mixed down to 2-channel. The 5.1 mixdown sounds the best, but I'd rather listen to any of these than the original WB US CDs.

    I've heard great things about the Rhino Talking Heads LPs, but being completely satisfied with the CD/DVDs I haven't bothered with those. I might try the Remain in Light Rhino LP at some point as that is my favorite album from them.
     
  6. wiki

    wiki Member Thread Starter

    I received the albums today. They sound pretty good. They appear to be from the same master as as the 2002 CDs. Earlier I did a needle drop of one of the songs to compare to the .flac I ripped from the CD. The vinyl appeared to be a little more dynamic, and under the spectrogram the audio seemed to peak above 22 Khz a bit more than the CD. There was also a bit more bass, indicated both by spectrogram and my ears. What it sounds like to me is that it was taken from a 24-bit version of the exact same master as the CD. I'm happy with them. I wish they were the masters done straight from the analog tapes for vinyl, but I've heard nothing but complaints about Rhino reissues from the analog tapes. I'd rather have a good sounding digital master on vinyl that plays well than a better sounding analog master that skips.

    Perhaps once I get my desktop working that has a really good Creative audio card that can capture 192 Khz 24-bit audio, I'll show the spectrogram and waveform of a song from the vinyl to the 2002 CD rip.
     
  7. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    I would interested to see this.

    If you haven't already, clean those records thoroughly. For some reason, Scorpio LPs are almost always filthy right out of the shrink (probably because they're pressed @ Rainbo), and it's not always apparent from a cursory visual inspection. They sound better after being cleaned.
     
  8. wiki

    wiki Member Thread Starter

    Well, I got my PC up and running, but I am having issues with the sound card. I got a blue screen of death yesterday, and after tinkering I got it running again after it wouldn't boot. The problem is now the audio card has rhythmic drop outs several times a second in the audio, and one channel is louder than the other. I tried different cables, but with the same result. So, I just had to capture with my laptop which has a crappy onboard soundcard. Still, the waveform should be fine. The spectrogram is not representative of the quality output by my setup. If I had my desktop working properly, that soundcard would better capture the higher end of the sound spectrum and would be able to sample higher than 48 Khz. In any case, I resampled the CD track to 48 Khz so that the spectrograms would be to scale.

    My eyes are telling me about what my ears told me. To my ears, the vinyl sounded very much like the CD master, but more dynamic and with less digital distortion. It also had a "smoother/warmer/insert vague subjective adjective" here sound to the bass. One failure I think of the spectrogram is that the bass has more presence on the LP, yet it appears on the spectrogram to be much quieter than the CD. Perhaps it is quieter, but the extra dynamics make it "pop" more.

    So, as I guessed, it appears the LPs were taken from the 2001 remasters, but were specially mastered for vinyl rather than just using the exact master on the CD. It's definitely not a.... uh, whatever the opposite of a needle drop is.

    The LPs were actually really clean and came sleeved in Mobile Fidelity sleeves. I was confused at first because they are not MoFi releases. The only issue is that 2 of my LPs are warped a bit. They play fine, but I had to increase the tracking force to remove some nasty sibilance that occurred from the warping. I have them under a trunk full of CDs right now to try and flatten them (that's right, records, feel the full weight of digital upon ye!).

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
     
  9. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    That's really strange. Were they sold as new? Not shrinkwrapped I'm guessing. Seller must have opened them to check for damage and cleaned them. Either that or bought them for a personal collection then decided to offload them later.
     
  10. wiki

    wiki Member Thread Starter

    Yup. They were new and shrinkwrapped.
     
  11. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    Weird. I have seen more and more used CD and used CDs marked as new turn up in my mailbox being used and re-shrinkwrapped by the seller. Hasn't happened with vinyl yet.
     
  12. wiki

    wiki Member Thread Starter

    It's possible, but nothing had the slightest hint that it was pre-owned. There were no fingerprints or anything visible on Road to Ruin, for instance, where the black cover would make them obvious. Plus, the records game from a small privately owned record shop just an hour away from me (needless to say they arrived very fast), I doubt they'd have the means to re-package items to look new like that.
     
  13. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    Wonder who did that then. Scorpio releases definitely do not come in MOFI sleeves, unless something radically changed recently. I've got probably 15 Scorpio titles and they came with the same cheap paper inners which I tossed. I have friend that sells a lot of Scorpio titles through his online store, and he never mentioned new style inners with those titles either. I wonder what is up there.
     
  14. wiki

    wiki Member Thread Starter

    Yeah, really weird. They are definitely red LPs like the Scorpios. Granted, it says scorpio no where on the record or sleeve. It just said scorpio on the discogs info for the red vinyl, for example, this. Maybe that's the wrong LP though.
     
  15. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    Scorpio pressings don't always say Scorpio on them. Most of the time, there is nothing that says Scorpio on them. You can identify them by the matrix numbers and other features. Why don't you post the matrix numbers from the deadwax and pics of the records?
     
  16. Jim B.

    Jim B. Senior Member

    Location:
    UK
    As a general rule you should never buy Scorpio pressings when you have a proper option (i.e when the label itself has reissued them).
     
  17. Preston

    Preston Forum Resident

    Location:
    KCMO Metro USA
    patient_ot - you are correct re the real Rhinos vs. the Scorpios. I have the real Rhinos. I was very surprised at the result of my comparisons of the Rhino LPs vs the DVD-Audio discs, as I was perfectly happy with the DVD-As too. After I bought a copy of the Rhino Fear of Music, I wound up buying all of them. Now I have CDs, DVD-As, original pressings and the Rhino LPs for the core Heads catalog. I think I'm set!
     
  18. wiki

    wiki Member Thread Starter

    My camera wouldn't take a decent close up of the etching, but the matrix number for their first LP is SC01-6020-A (or -B for side B).
     
  19. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    Yeah, pretty sure that would be a Scorpio.

    Scorpios definitely don't come in Mofi inners though, so someone at some point must have cracked them open and resealed them with those inners. Could've happened at the distributor level before it went to the small indie store you bought it from. Either that or what ever pressing plant made those (likely Rainbo) decided to randomly use MOFI sleeves. I think the prior scenario is more likely. Lots of people re-shrinkwrap stuff these days.
     
  20. MickAvory

    MickAvory Forum Resident

    Location:
    New Orleans, LA
    The regular Rhino Ramones vinyl issues (not the Scorpios) all are under $20 on Amazon. The first four are the only ones released. I have all four of them. They came in shrinkwrap (not loose outer baggies) and had the normal Rhino hype sticker on the outside. The inner sleeves were either plain paper, or poly-lined paper.

    All four are cut by Chris Bellman. And yes, all four were pressed at Rainbo.

    There is no point in getting the Scorpios of the first four. I would trust Bellman's mastering over some shady, unknown cut that Scorpio won't admit to source.
     
  21. wiki

    wiki Member Thread Starter

    They sound good to me, still better than the CDs. With all the issues with the more recent re-issues skipping, it didn't seem like it was worth the trouble risking having to return them, possibly more than once, just to get a perfectly playable copy. Plus, I got the set of 5 for about 40.00. They may not be the best, but they play without issue and are still an upgrade, so for the price I paid I'm perfectly satisfied. Thanks all for helping me figure out which pressing it was though!
     
  22. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    Well since both versions were pressed at Rainbo, it's always possible to get one with a flaw. People here seem to universally deride Scorpio pressings. If you have a high-end, very revealing system, I guess they are absolutely not the way to go under any circumstances.

    I've probably got 15-20 of them and have had good luck with most of them. I usually only get them if they are cheap and there isn't a better version easily available for a reasonable price. Since I don't "need" to have everything on vinyl, sometimes I'll just go for the CD if there is a decent, cheap version available instead of getting the Scorpio.

    One thing that's sort of annoying is that I bought Scorpio versions when no other versions were available on vinyl, or in some case no other version period is easily available at reasonable cost. Then, six months later or whatever, there is new reissue that's better. At that point depending on the album, I may or may not upgrade.
     
  23. wiki

    wiki Member Thread Starter

    Yeah. Admittidely, it was a bit of an impulse buy, so I'm justifying it post hoc now, haha. Still, like I said before, considering the price I paid it was a good deal. Usually I try to hunt down the best versions of something I can afford. In particular, I recently bought the re-pressing of Nirvana's Nevermind that uses the ORG master, as well as the yellow vinyl (neon Pallas pressing) of ORG's In Utero. They are absolutely fantastic. The 2013 remix on 45 RPM (can't recall who pressed it) is a really good sounding album as well.

    My system is probably a mid-range system. I'm fresh out of college, so I can't afford über expensive equipment, but I've probably spent about 700-800 on the whole thing. The next big upgrade I want to do one day is a vacuum tube amplifier. I have a tube headphone amp, but I'd love to have a proper stereo system powered by one of those. For now, I just have to use a Sony home theater when I don't feel like headphone listening.

    This forum has been a huge help in finding what the best releases of an album are. I've lurked here for a few years, but just recently joined.
     
    Robert C likes this.
  24. patient_ot

    patient_ot Senior Member

    Location:
    USA
    I have the Pallas Nevermind (bought on impulse actually) and it is one of the best sounding albums in my collection. You probably couldn't even tell it was an LP if you were in the next room and didn't see the vinyl spinning around.
     
  25. wiki

    wiki Member Thread Starter

    Yeah, the Pallas pressings I have are amazingly quiet. Pressings like those are what make the vinyl format worth it. Kurt's vocals so incredibly immediate and warm that you'd swear he's in the room. I just looked into it, and the 2013 mix of In Utero also appears to be a Pallas pressing. Not surprising given how good it sounded too. It's especially fun to listen with a pair of MDR-V6 headphones with the tube amp I have with them.
     
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