How did Steve Hackett alienate Mike Rutherford and Tony Banks so much?

If anyone's seen the selectively edited 'Sum of the Parts' doc, its clear in both the awkward exchanges between Steve and rest of the band as well as the much-maligned absence of Steve's solo career that there is some real bad blood there. Anyone know exactly why this is? Money? Bashing in the press? Playing the fan-favourites on tour? Jeez, at least its more than what we're getting from Mike and Tony at the moment.

There's an interview with Phil in 81 where he mentions how Steve pretty much went on a tear after he left Genesis, unleashing years of suppressed frustration to journalists. Anyone aware of any controversial quotes/articles?

Even though Gabriel was always the one holding out on any possible reunion, surely you'd think if they were on good terms with Steve we would've had the Seconds Out lineup on tour in 2007?

It seemed the two main players looked down on Steve and his mild-mannered nature which led to him being treated as a second-class citizen during and after his time with the band. Always struck me as pretty lousy.

 

I've never understood why people thought the Seconds Out line up was a realistic option for 2007. It was a lineup for two years and hardly has the mass appeal of the latter three man band.

I really cant see how Hackett would have fitted in playing Invisible Touch or I Can't Dance. You could feasibly have had him guest for a few songs like Mick Taylor does with the stones but I don't think he would have done that.

I don't dislike Hackett but I think he wants to have his cake and eat it somewhat by belittling the bands later success etc while still leveraging the brand to fill his bank account.

 

Banks and Rutherford did come across as rude and disrespectful towards Hackett in SOTP...also showing Stuermer play the Firth Of Fifth solo, when he never played on any studio record, ahem.

A great shame as I think they could make great music together. I agree a Seconds Out type of tour would've been great.

 

It was Peter G that batted for Steve to get the position. Peter always has good things to say about Steve and likewise. Steve is always super diplomatic when talking about Mike and Tony which is the only member he has never worked with outside Genesis, which is a shame. In fact I think Tony and Steve just don't get on because they are so much alike...very analytical. So you got iron against iron.

When it was just the 3 members, each one had their role more essential to the group dynamic.

I'm sure they were mates at one time but the years of not being in Genesis has given Steve many times to explain his dissatisfaction of the politics in the group.

Phil has been a supporter of Steve.

The fact that Mike and Tony had most of the control of this project is damning. But the fans know better.

When they hired Daryl Stuermer, they made it clear that he was a touring musician only.

I wonder if they resent his using their songs to go out on Tour...?

 

I think several factors play into Steve's outsider status:

- Steve is not a founding member, so he doesn't get the benefit of the doubt from Tony
- released the first solo album of the post-Gabriel lineup while still in the band, which Tony likely saw as a betrayal
- the way Steve left--just walking away during the mixing of Seconds Out--was an anticlimax of sorts but with a strange dynamic. They were at the peak of their popularity to date (a trajectory that didn't peak until IT or WCD) but there didn't seem to be any doubt in their minds that they could carry on without Steve.
- I agree that similarities between Steve and Tony saw Tony seeing Steve as a threat, especially post-Peter: Steve was writing more and trying to get more album time for his songs. He was also coming out of his shell: the guitarist who used to sit through the entire show and hide behind huge NHS glasses and a beard was now clean-shaven, glasses-free and wearing flashy (at least relative to the rest of the band) stage clothes. Tony no doubt didn't care for any of that.
- Steve's strange mumblings at the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame acceptance confirmed that he continued to be the odd man out; just not on the same page with the other guys.

I haven't bothered to watch the new documentary. Tony acting that way is not surprising, but I am disappointed to hear Mike, ever the gentleman, has joined in.

 

All this anti climax feeling within the band started as back as 1973

When Peter was at the peak of his performance powers, with very innovative onstage theatrics (costumes, stories, etc), the press was always more interested in him than the rest of the band.

Even for some fans Genesis was equal to Peter Gabriel.
It seemed that inside the band no one really care about that and it was fine ... except for Tony Banks.

Tony, ever since, has always been really envious about Gabriel success ... and later Collins

It was him the idea to write individual members on credits after Gabriel left. Prior that, all the songs were credited as Banks/ Collins/ Gabriel/ Hackett/ Rutherford

Then, when Gabriel left, Hackett was the very first Genesis member to release a solo album. Again, it was fine for the rest of the band (even Collins and Rutherfod DID PLAY on 'Voyage of The Acolyte') ... except for Tony Banks.

And when he failed to have any solo success, rather than expressing gratitude towards the members of the band, he started to have virtually nothing but bitter words towards Gabriel and Hackett. I'm pretty sure that if 'Calling All Stations' would've been a worldwide smash, then Tony would've started to badmouth Phil Collins.

And all the biggest mistakes in Genesis releases have been because of Tony Banks (like 2007/2008 remixes), vetoing long-awaited releases like BBC Sessions, etc, etc.

I really hope the grumpy old man will make up his mind someday soon. On his control-freak decisions, Genesis have lost so much.

 

Some good points here. Could you post the RRHOF speech you make reference to?

 

I'm glad Steve Hackett cares for what it's all about - the music.
If that fills his bank account it's ok by me. This music fills up my heart. Besides... it's his job and he's good at it.
For me there's absolutely no need for a Genesis reunion. Why listen to a band who apparently do not seem to care much about what they created.
Steve Hackett's band play it all with love and enthusiasm....that's what counts for me.

 

Nice post and good point.

 

I have no desire to see the recent documentary. Why the filmmakers and/or Tony Banks chose to apparently all but ignore Steve Hackett's contributions while giving props to a convicted pedophile, I'll never understand. I can't think of another band that comes across as more miserable than Genesis and it seems as time goes by, they get ever more miserable. Ponkine has it right, IMO. Grumpy old men indeed.

 

Mike Rutherford agrees with many of the sentiments in this thread regarding the documentary. Here's a recent interview: http://www.genesis-news.com/c-Inter...-Sum-of-The-Parts-Mechanics-touring-s581.html

GNC: While the R-Kive concept is something everybody understands, there has been a lot of criticicm about Sum Of The Parts as it’s an unbalanced documentary. What is your own opinion? Could it have been done better?

Mike: Well, it could always be done better, of course. You know that Steve was complaining and I agree to that. It was done by Eagle Rock and I saw the first cut which was awful and it was so boring. There was no solo stuff from nearly anybody, none from Peter and Steve was hardly in it at all. So we had a conversation and they changed the editor and the team. New guys came in and we saw a new draft way past the deadline for the BBC and actually commented on things like there were no Vari*Lites, there was no Steve on the solo stuff and so on. And then we didn’t see that one again before it was finished. We were not really in control, we got in too late really.

 

Pedophile?

 

Yes. Pedophile.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jonathan_King

 

Thanks for the info had no idea who you were talking about and based on context would have guessed you were talking Darryl (not that there is any reason i know of to believe that about him).

But is does make sense to discuss the guy who discovered the band in a documentary regardless of his criminal record. Are you saying he got more time than Steve?

 

Funny that Mike puts the lights omission before the Steve solo omission. At least Steve snuck in ahead of the LOC puppeteers.

 

I would also add his non-public school background to this list. While Phil Collins, "ever the joker", was able to penetrate the class barrier as a kind of a court jester, there was no such ready-made role available for Steve to ease his way in. Furthermore, considering that Anthony Phillips and Mike Rutherford had been very close friends, replacing Ant must have been even harder than under more "normal" band circumstances.

 

I actually didn't find out about King's criminal record until relatively recently and I've been a Genesis fan for many years. Essentially, I discovered it the same way you did on another forum. I agree that it makes sense to discuss King's involvement with the band-just not to the degree that he supposedly is in the documentary. As I said, I haven't seen it. But there was a fairly large outcry from the UK press a few months ago if you want to look it up. It's an ugly topic and I shouldn't derail the discussion any more than I have.

 

I have outtake footage of an old tape trading friend interviewing Steve and Kim in 1982. At one point Kim starts going off about the Abacab cover, how awful it is and how the different color schemes was a deliberate attempt by Genesis to rip-off the fans by making them think it was different albums. The whole time Steve looks embarrassed and is looking at her like STFU.

 

Mass appeal for Genesis meant people thinking Phil Collins was Genesis.

At one of the American gigs, a fan noted his excitement of getting a good seat off the side of the arena. "I've good a really good view of Tony Banks" he said to the couple next to him. To which they replied "Who's that?"

 

Good thing that they are divorced now, and Steve is happily remarried!!

 

Another reason why I 100x prefer the Genesis Songbook DVD or even VH1 BTM.

Also these documentaries don't attempt to 'airbrush' Ray Wilson out of the story, either.

 

I think your post is pretty much spot on - the only point I'd make is that Tony and Steve's relationship may certainly be a little fractious, but making the point of their not working together outside of the band is perhaps a little irrelevant. To my knowledge Tony has never appeared on any album by another member of Genesis, neither have any of them appeared on his solo albums (with the exception of Chester Thompson who only sort of counts).

 

Banks is a jerk it's that simple. He has bashed Rick Wakeman many times who is one of the nicest guys in the business. Banks is just jealous of anyone's solo success. Sad but true.

Scott B

 

Certainly true. Where Phil Collins was already the 4th drummer in the band, Steve Hackett had to replace founding member and high school buddy Anthony Philips, this certainly contributed to Steve becoming a bit of an outsider.

Apparently he had already signed a multi album deal. He requested time off around the time of Wind & Wuthering for more solo work, which the rest of the band refused.

What happened certainly remains one of the strangest episodes in the band's history. Phil Collins has mentioned he saw him walking on the sidewalk while driving to the studio, he offered Steve a ride to the studio, with Steve replying "No, I'll talk to you later". When Phil arrived at the studio he had already called either Mike or Tony mentioning he was leaving the band. The band just accepted it and that was that. A very strange way to stop working together after 7 years.

The way I've always seen it is that Mike and Phil were just happy to be on board, not writing that much anyway (at least then) and were very happy with Tony providing most of the material. But for Steve, the inclusion of "Blood On The Rooftops" and the middle section of "Eleventh Earl Of Mar" certainly weren't enough. I guess Tony indeed saw that as a threat and it may well have been the reason why things like "Please Don't Touch" were left off W&W.

 

Going to see Steve an a about 5 hours in Albany NY. Perhaps he will mention something....