The "DSD Revolution" Still Coming, or a Bust?

Discussion in 'Audio Hardware' started by ServingTheMusic, Jun 5, 2014.

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  1. Lucidae

    Lucidae AAD

    Location:
    Australia
    Why call into question the benefits of DSD? Admittedly it's not always taken full advantage of, but when it is, the result can speak for itself.
     
    Last edited: Nov 20, 2014
  2. Metralla

    Metralla Joined Jan 13, 2002

    Location:
    San Jose, CA
    Well said.
     
  3. rodney sherman

    rodney sherman Forum Resident

    Location:
    de soto, kansas
    I Agree. DSDFILE.com has found that double DSD sounds as perfect as the master tapes they are made from. DSD stands for doesn't sound digital to those that know its advantages.
     
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  4. Rolltide

    Rolltide Forum Resident

    Location:
    Vallejo, CA
    ...And their selection is exactly what I expected to find.
     
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  5. sunspot42

    sunspot42 Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Francisco
    You got a better number? I'll bet 5% is actually on the high side by the way, in unit sales. As for the established base, it's probably under 2% of all home D/A converters currently in use (I'll leave computers and portables out of the discussion for now)...

    http://sjeng.org/ftp/SACD.pdf

    The reality is the master is many, many times more important than the delivery format, assuming both are high-resolution, so I'm not sure what advantage DSD conveys apart from being more difficult to rip. And that's only an advantage to the labels, not the consumers.
     
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  6. Lucidae

    Lucidae AAD

    Location:
    Australia
    Can you summarize what that PDF says? It's a bit long...
     
  7. Metralla

    Metralla Joined Jan 13, 2002

    Location:
    San Jose, CA
    It's 13 years old. Maybe the problems it alludes to have been addressed. I know this paper has been referred to in arguments against DSD ever since the SACD-DVD-Audio wars on AA in 2001 and on, and I recall some questioned the validity of it. I'd like to know what parts of it sunspot42 agrees with.
     
  8. gloomrider

    gloomrider Well-Known Member

    Location:
    Hollywood, CA, USA
    I think this all (once again) boils down to how it measures vs. how it sounds. The PS Audio Directstream sounds pretty good to me, and hasn't gotten much in the way of negative reviews that I know of. I would really enjoy a presentation where Ted Smith goes over that 2001 AES paper above. My eyes would probably quickly glaze, but it would be fascinating.
     
  9. testikoff

    testikoff Seasoned n00b

    DSD is never simple to compare with PCM (even if mastering of audio is exactly the same, like with certain Universal Japan's SHM-SACDs & 2013-14 Pt/non-Pt SHM-CDs), since there are always level differences inherent to both formats, which need to be accurately zeroed to have a fair comparison, IMO. I wonder if people do that prior to declaring sure winner (I try to)...
     
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  10. sunspot42

    sunspot42 Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Francisco
    The Abstract provides the summary:


    Single-stage, 1-bit sigma-delta converters are in principle imperfectible. We prove this fact. The reason, simply
    stated, is that, when properly dithered, they are in constant overload. Prevention of overload allows only partial
    dithering to be performed. The consequence is that distortion, limit cycles, instability, and noise modulation can
    never be totally avoided. We demonstrate these effects, and using coherent averaging techniques, are able to display
    the consequent profusion of nonlinear artefacts which are usually hidden in the noise floor. Recording, editing,
    storage, or conversion systems using single-stage, 1-bit sigma-delta modulators, are thus inimical to audio of the
    highest quality. In contrast, multi-bit sigma-delta converters, which output linear PCM code, are in principle
    infinitely perfectible. (Here, multi-bit refers to at least two bits in the converter.) They can be properly dithered so
    as to guarantee the absence of all distortion, limit cycles, and noise modulation. The audio industry is misguided if
    it adopts 1-bit sigma-delta conversion as the basis for any high-quality processing, archiving, or distribution format
    to replace multi-bit, linear PCM.

    I recall reading lots of handwaving from the DSD camp when this first came out, but nobody ever refuted the math.
     
  11. SteelyTom

    SteelyTom Forum Resident

    Location:
    Boston, Mass.
    Not to mention, DSD deprives us of our precious bodily fluids.
     
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  12. The Beave

    The Beave My Wife Is My Life! And don’t I forget it!

    B I N G O
    And Bingo was his name-o.
    the beave
     
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  13. The Beave

    The Beave My Wife Is My Life! And don’t I forget it!

    Rob, I too had given up on Redbook years ago until I happened onto one of the new generation players with a Wolfson DAC-the $150 Onkyo C-7030. That one lowly priced player TOTALLY turned me around, no kidding. The difference between it's sound (vivid, air around the instruments) and my Tascam 900 with Burr Brown 24 bit dac's was literally like night and day. Even my old AC/DC original issue cd's that have always sounded dead, sounded surprisingly good. It turned me back around to Redbook cd, then to SACD, then Back to CD-ditching the SACD format because I could tell no difference (to my ears) between that format and the Redbook version of the same album. So, I don't know what has happened in the last ten years, but something good happened to DAC's, even in lower priced players (the 7030) that made the CD format very much a viable, enjoyable product once again.
    I still love vinyl, but to have good sounding cd's like the recent Hendrix 'Cry Of Love' is just beyond cool. In fact that cd alone can attest to how good redbook can sound on a good player with a recent DAC.
    Hell, if you have $140, try the 7030, buy it from Amazon, if you don't like it, send it back for a refund. It's a very cheap way to salvage your cd collection.
    And if you don't hear an improvement, then you get your money back.
    the beave
     
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  14. VinylRob

    VinylRob Forum Resident

    A cheap but magical DAC that will turn my digital world up-side-down... Hmmm, I'll pass.
    Presently listen with a Sony XA5400ES which is nice, have listened to may at up to ten times its price and none have been convincing, so sorry.
     
  15. sunspot42

    sunspot42 Forum Resident

    Location:
    San Francisco
    I thought that was PCM?

    Or was it transistor amps?
     
    SteelyTom likes this.
  16. The Beave

    The Beave My Wife Is My Life! And don’t I forget it!

    No Need to be sorry. Just passing on a bit of experience here.
    the beave
     
  17. VinylRob

    VinylRob Forum Resident

    If you're living in musical bliss, I don't care to be the one to rain upon your picnic. Enjoy!

    Though in my experience, I feel less sorry than the I find the Redbook format (in general), as for thirty-two years I have been less than content with its impact on my musical enjoyment. For some, it is all they really know and truly understand but, that doesn't make it relevant except in the sense of retail sales and profits overall IMHO. It often sounds two dimensional, leading edge aggressive, tonally wrong, thin, lacking complex layering, lacking warmth, and missing the mojo, that visceral human element. There is something missing...

    In 1982 my response to the compact disc being introduced was to go out and purchase a (very expensive in the day) Lp12 Sondek (Linn) turntable (approx. 1900 USD without cartridge). Which to this day I feel was one of my better life discussions. Soon after then, when they (the industry) tried to make lack luster CD sales improve by stopping the presses on vinyl, I not only grew a deep seated hatred for the industry, for their narrow mindedness, and blunders keeping us from hearing the music we loved (and that still was making them filthy rich regardless), that I started committing myself to buying everything PVC in sight before it was gone! Hence my assumed moniker. And isn't it strangely wonderful and fitting that we are now in a heyday of a vinyl rebirth. Now, I finally hear digital (DSD/SACD) that sounds reasonably right and they (the industry) again, balk at delivering the preferred format for music reproduction to me and many others like me again.

    Now (with all due respect) you come along with the idea of a budget DAC. It may well appear to be a revelation to you, but I very seriously doubt that it would be any kind of revelation to me, for all the reasons I have previously stated. I appreciate your offering, I do, I just find the solution completely inappropriate to my listening needs and perhaps a bit naive. I really love music, love our hobby, and thoroughly enjoy interacting in this community, but I am more than a bit frustrated with the complex (and IMO, poor) choices that are made about the digital format by the machine behind it all...

    So Welcome, to the Machine...

    Happy Listening!
     
    Last edited: Nov 23, 2014
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  18. 56GoldTop

    56GoldTop Forum Resident

    Location:
    Nowhere, Ok
    Are you talking about the Tascam CD burners? I still have one. They use the AKM AK4528VM a/d/ac. As such, I would agree, not a great sounding dac. However, I do have the DV-RA1000HD with the 24 bit Burr Brown 1792 dac. There is a huge, colossal even, difference between the two. The Tascam's 1792 based DAC has bested several other standalone dacs I've tried. Running the Tascam 900 thru the DV-RA1000HD's dac had the expected (much better) results. I'm not sure what's in my Onkyo TX-8050 as far as dacs go; but, if it's the same as the C-7030, I can tell you that I certainly don't prefer it over the Burr Brown. The Onkyo smooths off all the corners even when I don't want it to which means many harsh CDs are listenable; but, at the same time higher resolutions sound rather lackluster because they didn't have harshness that needed smoothing... so the crisp (not harsh) treble gets rounded off. Not good. I have found the BB dac in the DV to be "honest" about CDs. As such, there are many CDs I do not put in it.
     
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  19. 56GoldTop

    56GoldTop Forum Resident

    Location:
    Nowhere, Ok
    More and more, I try to stay out of these types of discussions because they rarely end well or end at all. However, I don't disagree with anything written here and my experience rather mirrors it. Yeah, we finally have digital that is soooooo close to getting it right and still there's that faction that just can't be happy about that. I'm not even talking about analog heads (of which I am one) vs. digiphiles. It's their own family, for frikksake! Digital is a house divided and that is truly a shame; very sad... ...and full of stupidity, IMO.
     
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  20. VinylRob

    VinylRob Forum Resident

    Again we find agreement, as I was thinking the very same as I wrote away with my thoughts and experiences, and considered posting or not posting...
     
  21. Brother_Rael

    Brother_Rael Senior Member

    Can't think what some folk listen to their music on, especially digital, but in my experience, of countless rock, classical, jazz and spoken word discs over the years, I've yet to find anything that's vaguely close to what VinylRob experiences or claims. I'm not saying that it doesn't exist for him, I would be interested in knowing what music he listen to though.
     
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  22. Metralla

    Metralla Joined Jan 13, 2002

    Location:
    San Jose, CA
    Nicely stated.
     
  23. The Beave

    The Beave My Wife Is My Life! And don’t I forget it!

    The Machine indeed VRob!
    I understand where your coming from. I mean, for me, this is like the upteenth time I've purchased the same Beatles music over and over and over again.
    The only thing about the 7030 that I wanted to relate, is that for me, one who had totally given up on CD's and went back to vinyl (around 6 years ago now) the new generation of DAC's changed that part of the game for me.

    You come up with a valid point with the industry purposely aiding the death of Vinyl back in the 80's. My point about the Beatles is valid proof of that, Hell, I have 9 Beatles Box sets-CD's and Vinyl-it's totally nuts but The Machine is very good at hustling that almighty buck.
    I lucked out 6 years ago, before the vinyl mania manifested itself like it is right now, by scarfing up vinyl titles Like the Hendrix titles that had been sitting in warehouses probably for over a decade-and I got them damned cheap, like the 3LP Woodstock set for $23 at Oldies.com. Now, it's turned around, the Vinyl new issues are going for big bucks, like the 1LP Hendrix 'Cry Of Love' going for $24.98 while the cd version is $9. I chuckle at this turn, but I was able to get important titles like 'Kind Of Blue' for cheap a few years ago.
    The funny thing VRob about cd's, My needle drops sound just like what they are, recordings from Vinyl......So how come there are so many lousy sounding cd's out there?
    Just keep an eye out on the Japanese, they seem to be most willing in delivering the SACD goods. But at a premium price-go figure.
    Have a good Sunday, been nice chatting with you. Keep the Flame going, without people like you and I, this industry would be more of a joke than it already is.
    the beave
    Seahawks time, and man we're hurting up here.
    Very disappointing season.
     
  24. The Beave

    The Beave My Wife Is My Life! And don’t I forget it!

    Ditto Ditto.
    Think of what it's going to be like in 5 years from now. This is even worse than the Beta/Vhs wars.
    What we need is a Hex DAC that re invents the whole Digital Standard and gets totally away from Binary Digital Technology. No reason why it can't be done.
    the beave
     
  25. 56GoldTop

    56GoldTop Forum Resident

    Location:
    Nowhere, Ok
    I seem to remember quite some years ago, that some were working on "wave trace" technology rather than "wave sampling" technology. And, I remember thinking, "...these guys get it..." Nevertheless, I did not understand the white papers and could not explain then or now how they proposed to implement what they were talking about. Still, it' seems like they were not thinking out of the box but leaving the box behind. I haven't been able to find anything on it since. Nor would I be surprise if "big industry" squashed it.
     
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